Trying not to hijack an IMHO thread, I move this argument over here:
Wow. So this argument medicalizes “liberals”—or more to the point, welfare-statists and the like—as developmentally arrested, incurable, and possibly to benefit from what used to be called institutionalization. It’s a bit Freudian, isn’t it?
I could flip it around:
Anti-government types are those whose idea of adulthood is an exaggerated version of the early-adult profound feeling of liberation from one’s parents. They fail to understand that a strong state and various internal policing agencies exist to protect the entire country and its citizens from the abuses of misguided individual actors.
Such abuses may be in the form of violence, environmental damage, fraud, or a failure to live up to promised obligations on which others rely. They may come from malice, ignorance, or recklessness. But in any case, society is better when we nip such abuses in the bud.
The libertarian is so focused on his own liberation from domineering parents that he seeks ever more liberation, and he votes for de-regulation, an end to useful organizations like labor unions, and even unsustainable business practices. The libertarian is viscerally afraid that he will be asked to take responsibility for others, and that his own freedom will be directly constrained by those who take responsibility for his surroundings. So he votes against even such laws as protected his own childhood environment, and even more passionately against any new law.
This is fun. I’m not sure it’s valid, but it’s fun. :dubious:
I’m pretty sure that the only thing that unambiguously derives from maturity is death by old age. Regarding the causes of liberalism and conservativism , I would say that liberalism is generally driven by empathy and conservativism is generally driven by fear. (Classically, fear of change and government tyranny; modernly, fear of…other things.) However I would also say that there are many, many people on both sides who are only on their side due to special interests - for an example I know a dude who stinks of conservativism but is a hardcore democrat because he’s pro-union. And there is certainly a segment of both clubs who got where they are because they are uninformed and just hooked up with the crowd they were raised in or fell in with, and who now parrot their side’s slogans unthinkingly, and that particular approach to anything could be called immature.
To address the OP, the reasons people adopt any viewpoint are generally too widespread to make a blanket statement. The comment you’re replying to though is a ridiculous strawman and can safely be ignored.
I seem to recall that that was said by some old conservative, unsurprisingly. Sounds like the jerk was taking the opportunity to slyly insult liberals by saying they have no common sense and fly off the handle for no reason.
I live in a heavily conservative area. Most people around here tend to get more liberal over time, as they get tired of giving a crap. Note that while assessing this you have to take into account the fact that people who are already old were probably raised way more racist and bigoted than people are now, so even the tempered version of them is still a racist old coot.
In an attempt to keep this out of the Pit, I’ll repeat something I’ve said in the past: conservatives (and libertarians) believe life is fundamentally fair. They believe that what you get out of life is proportionate to the effort you put into life. So if some people have more than others, it’s fair; they earned it by doing more. If somebody is poor, it’s generally their own fault; if they were willing to do more, they’d have more.
Although I’d argue that extreme views on either side likely derive from immaturity. It’s much easier to believe, when you’re young, that a particular pure philosophy has all the answers. As you mature and encounter a diversity of viewpoints and understand that the real world is rarely black and white, I believe that your beliefs become more nuanced and, while not exactly centrist, more moderate.
Or maybe I just think so because I’ve become more moderate as I’ve aged
Presumably an old conservative who had been a young liberal. The claim covers him on both sides; his beliefs were right when he was young and his beliefs are right now that’s he’s old, even though those two sets of beliefs are in opposition. It saves him from having to concede he may have made any mistakes in his life.
Conservatism and liberalism are so vast and varied that there’s just no way they could all derive from the same place. Even the idea that liberalism derives from empathy and conservatism from fear doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with every liberal belief. Liberals aren’t empathic towards racism, and conservatives don’t want lower taxes out of fear.
I can think of one unfortunately common belief that comes from immaturity. It does seem to be more common on the conservative side, though not exclusively. That is the whole “freedom of speech means freedom from consequences” mentality. It comes entirely from a desire to be able to whatever you want without considering others.
That is something I would fairly classify as a maturity issue. It’s something that is common in children, but that most adults grow out of before then. Even if you become the type of older person who “doesn’t care,” you still realize there are consequences. You just don’t care about them.
Liberals aren’t empathetic towards racism because that’s insanely stupid; however you’re right that the desire to lower taxes doesn’t come out of fear. That comes out of self-interest, which is something that both sides also have in good supply. (Though with liberals it’s easy to disguise that a bit - I like improved worker conditions because I’m a worker, but I can pretend I care about other workers instead. (Yeah right. Me, caring!))
I think you’re spot on about the whole “no responsibility for anything” mindset we’re seeing nowadays, though. Not terribly mature, that.
I know you say you don’t mean being entirely moderate which is good. I used to think being moderate/centrist was the answer. But I’ve since realized that I really am thoroughly liberal. The diversity of viewpoints I encountered actually pulled me towards the liberal direction.
Of course, I’m only 32, which is only old by the standards of children and college students.
Plus, certain external circumstances are making me more angry than usual, which makes me more extreme in how I say things, making me come off as an idiot at times, since I can’t proofread while angry, either.
Could you give an example of a conservative expression of this mentality? I’m having a really tough time thinking of a non-liberal one, but perhaps that’s just because I’ve spent too much time reading the Evergreen thread lately.
This. I’m becoming more moderate, although starting from the far left I’m still probably quite leftist. I’ve never bought into the notion that ideas were superior because they were leftist or inferior because they were rightist. I have a specific set of values that I’m interested in serving regardless of where the solution comes from. That has changed even more with time, which I have to assume is some indication of maturity. The ability to critically evaluate arguments from your own ‘‘corner’’ and the ability to view the opposing viewpoint as a variety of individuals rather than one monolithic entity seems pretty central to maturation.
I don’t think you could link the set of policies that make the 21st century American definition of “Liberal” to “Conservative” to age.
But the literal definition of conservative means opposed to change (and that’s what it actually meant for most of history) in that sense I don’t think it is a particularly controversial assumption that older people are more opposed to change than younger people.
Calling people you don’t like immature is lazy, but I tend to associate the following movements with ignorant twenty-year-olds and I hope they outgrow it as they read more or get more life experience.
New atheists: May have grown up in an environment where their angry backlash is understandable, but still not excusable. They suffer from the second option bias, display the worst aspects of scientism, and they hate philosophy, social sciences, and can’t appreciate anything from religion and get angry when a piece of media portrays spirituality as anything but horrible. Often some flavor of STEMlord, nihilist, brocialist, or they fall for nationalist/pro-military propaganda as long as it’s against Muslims. They say things like religion is responsible for all wars or that humans have no free will and morality is fake because souls don’t exist. These are the type of people who think Sam Harris is a genius.
Millennial reactionaries: Umbrella term that covers the alt-right, Youtube anti-feminists, redpillers, 4chan white nationalists, people who spend most of their time railing against SJWs and dumb college kids, and people who pretend to be liberal while calling actual liberals “regressive.” Their obsession with masculinity would give Freud fits, their collective knowledge of history is laughable (did you know Rome fell because of feminazis), they don’t understand context, their lack of emotional intelligence is disturbing, and they communicate in buzzword insults, you virtue signaling white knight betacuck mangina.
Trumps base voted for him to save their jobs. Jobs that are not relevant any more. And to save them from those other people that do jobs that they won’t do, or can do jobs they don’t understand.
The people that are afraid, and who it scares the HELL out of, are those that voted for Trump. The world is changing whether they like it or not.
Trump supports voted for a man that is similar to them in that he does not think far ahead, and uses bluster and bullying to get what he wants. A drug store cowboy that is all hat and no cattle.
It’s difficult, I’m sure, to see the world change around you, and have a hard time to adapt to it.
Trump supporters are the people that have not matured.
You liberals are funny when you show your hypocrisy. Which is often.
You call yourself a liberal and accuse conservatives of being cranky and mean and just plain bigotted.
Yet, in your short post you called conservatives: “jerks” (the original coiner of the adage I posted)…“racist”…and “old coots.”
You also alluded to the fact (wrong, btw) that the only probable reason a person could be so deluded as to be a Conservative is “that they were raised that way.”
Doesn’t your elitest whiny pablum ever allow you to actually examine what it is you say? And how you and your ilk come across?
