And if you supposedly read and understood what is being sought after here, you wouldn’t have brought up Wiccan “magick” at all.
Person A:“I was bitten by a vicious pitbull today! Let’s discuss how pitbulls are mistrained by people, o.k.?”
Person B:“My Pomeranian is VERY docile! I think that you are misjudging dogs!”
Person A:“I’m sorry, but the type of dogs I am talking about are mistrained pitbulls.”
Person B:“But most dogs are NOT vicious!”
Person A:screams
Or, in other words, this thread is NOT about pagans, Wiccans, “Magick”, how you feel when you chant etc.
Do you have something to contribute, either positively or negatively, to the actual purpose of this thread?
Don’t feel bad, though… I, for one, know what you’re trying to find out, even if you’re constantly getting these “I don’t know what you’re asking” type of things. Perhaps people are a tad too defensive about the subject?
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again… “Magic” is just a card game.
Monty, this comment of yours is exactly why Czar is having so much trouble getting a “straight” answer.
You see, you’ve just lumped all pagans in with folks who believe they can blow fireballs out their butts without benefit of match or flatulence. As seawitch said, not all pagans believe this. In fact, she doesn’t know anyone IRL who believes this. I don’t know anyone IRL who believes this (although I have a couple of D&D characters who are convinced they can, and have, done so, and I don’t have the heart to tell them they’re not real and don’t count in this discussion).
I am sure that some pagans believe they can cast levitation/fireball/whatever. I’m also sure that the SDMB is not somewhere you’re likely to find that sort of person. Hell, I’m a pagan and I’m not even sure I believe I can affect my own reality with magic/prayer/chanting/however you’re misdefining my beliefs right now.
But to answer Czar’s question, no. Undoubtedly we will someday discover something that seems “magical” to us (frankly, the magic I’m hoping for is teleportation so commuting isn’t such a bitch anymore ;)) and science will proceed to explore this magical effect so that it can be replicated. Then it won’t be magic any more.
But I used to work in a magic shop. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.
No, the reason he’s having so much trouble getting a straight action is that those who won’t give him one are providing nothing but knee-jerk reactions. Thus my comment about “protest too much.”
I did no such thing. I merely said that in my humble opinion folks know exactly what he’s looking for. But what he’s getting is knee-jerk reactions. Thus my comment about “protest too much.”
Then since Czar EXPLICITLY STATED he wasn’t asking about them, those folks should’ve not lumped themselves in with who he’s actualy asking about. Thus my comment about “protest too much.”
Then since Czar EXPLICITLY STATED he wasn’t asking about such people, those folks should’ve not lumped themselves in with who he’s actualy asking about. Thus my comment about “protest too much.”
Well, then that’s part of the group he’s asking about. He EXPLICTLY STATED that.
[qutoe]I’m also sure that the SDMB is not somewhere you’re likely to find that sort of person. Hell, I’m a pagan and I’m not even sure I believe I can affect my own reality with magic/prayer/chanting/however you’re misdefining my beliefs right now.
[/quote]
Completely irrelevant to what Czar EXPLICITLY ASKED about.
Not in the realm of “magic” AS CZAR EXPLICITLY DEFINED WHAT HE WAS ASKING ABOUT. What you describe is a scientific examination of a phenomenon. It wasn’t “magic” to begin with, merely not yet examined and explained.
Czar also EXPLICITLY STATED that’s not the kind of stuff he was asking about either.
I’m arriving somewhat late to this discussion, but in checking the posts already left, there seem to be folks here who want a replicatable experiment, ANY kind of experiment. Tossing coins was suggested at one point, but I’d like to raise the stakes a little:
I and/or my organization will cast spells for all takers with the stated objective that in 5 years the recipient has a personal net worth of at least $500,000. Before the spell is performed, we will sign a legally binding contract which states that if the recipient does, in fact, have a net worth of $500,000 or more at a date 5 years from now, he/she will remit to Corporate Witches, Inc. a check for 10 percent of his net worth. I don’t care to know any personal information about posters before beginning the process, though we will need some personal articles (photo, etc.) to do the working. I expect to collect from 80 percent of you.
If, on a semi-random (SD posters cannot be thought a truly random sampling of the U.S. or world population) sample such as this we achieve a 75 percent or more success rating, I’d ask the skeptics to stipulate that the magic worked. If the result is less than that, I’ll stipulate that it didn’t work, and look like a dumbass in front of half the world. I’ll also be richer (due to random chance, some participants would blunder their way into half a mil anyway).
Sorry, Usurer. I won’t pay you $50,000 dollars to prove a point. Besides, I’m afraid your proposal has one major confound–it’s safe to say that most people here want and are working to increase their net worths.
It will be impossible to determine causation. Do I have half a mil because you cast a spell, or because I worked my ass off to provide for my family’s future?
To put it more plainly, Usurer: You’d have to prove that it was your “magic” and nothing else that was responsible for the group’s prosperity. You’d have to pick people who have no source of income. (Or maybe people on a fixed income, like Social Security.) Even that might not be enough. Also, you’d have to allow for inflation; the increase in personal worth (gross or net?) would have to be in constant dollars.
Frankly, your proposal seems like nothing more than a pyramid scheme with you at the summit. Let’s say 50 people sign the agreement and 40 of them are worth at least $500,000 five years from now. If all 40 of them pay you 10% of their worth, you will collect a cool $2,000,000 and you will have done for it is cast some spells without ever really proving it was your spells which were responsible.
How about this: If the group’s worth does NOT improve to $500,000, you have to pay EACH of them 10% of YOUR worth. After all, you would have failed to perform the service for which you were hired. The potential recipients would be entitled to some form of compensation. (Hope you have $2,500,000 handy. Remember, you might have to pay EVERYONE.)
I was of course aware of James Randi’s outstanding $10,000 offer, but I didn’t realize other people had pooled cash with him. One mil would be tempting, if we could get the experimental protocols down…
Here’s a little of what I was thinking when I made my offer:
There are a fair amount of people out there who not making a whole lot of money and who, due to the nature of their job, can expect not to be making a whole lot of money 5 years from now. Clerks at Blockbuster, say, or bicycle couriers–whatever. Their chance of having a $500,000 net worth in 5 years is effectively zero, as things stand today.
Cause-and-effect is damn tough to prove with magic, as the results appear to be coincidental. Okie dokie, I was skeptical when I started fooling around with magic too. What we needed, then, was a large enough group of volunteers to test whether such an effect was present or not. We would probably need a control group, too, with volunteers assigned randomly. If 75 percent of people in the treatment group who at the onset rated their chances of wealth as “low” did indeed have a vast increase in their personal holdings, then we might be onto something here. If not, I’m just another big-mouth witch who fell under the onslaught of science.
Granted, it would be dumb to take part in this particular experiment if you thought you had a reasonable chance of pulling in some big bucks in the next 5 years. There’s no reason to pay my group if you’re gonna go out and get wealthy on your own, anyway. So don’t sign up.
The experiment costs the volunteers NOTHING unless the stated desire is accomplished. I don’t know about you guys, but it seems to me that there are a lot of people out there who get paid whether their actions work or not, among them M.D.s and politicians. If you come down with cancer, are you not only gonna demand free chemo but a monetary penalty from the doctor if it doesn’t work? Granted, if you’ve looked at the website you’ll see that for our normal operations Corporate Witches will be charging a few hundred bucks just for doing the procedure, with a larger payment later if it works. But that’s not the deal I offered here.
I had to put this kind of timeline on the experiment so the magic had plenty of time to work. As the saying goes in the field, “Divine short, enchant long” which means only that for highly improbable events (like having a select group of people accumulate a good chunk of wealth). Sure, I could’ve offered something like “Okay, I’ll do a spell requesting that all volunteers receive unexpected money in the mail in the next two weeks, with an amount ranging between $300 and $1000.” But that’s a lot of work just to impress six people on the SDMB, and I don’t get paid.
On a different tack, I was involved with a group who did a binding spell on a garbage incinerator in Minneapolis on Halloween night in, oh, 1990 or so. We were on several Twin Cities television stations, so it shouldn’t be tough to find references to the fact that it actually happened. Several hours after we did the working, they had to shut the whole plant down because of an equipment malfunction. I only mention this because somebody mentioned they had a friend in Sweden who did a weather spell against a construction company or something like that, and somebody else said, “Hey, everybody’s got a FOAF story, but how can I talk to that person to verify?” FWIW.
1: Raise the bar and I’d be more likely to bite. While I’d like to think my net worth in 5 years will be greater than $500K, I very much doubt it will be, say, $5 million.
So, cast a spell to grant me a net worth of $5,000,000 in five years, and I’ll consent to one percent (the same $50,000 stated originally.)
2: You said:
You wanna get paid? How about 50%? I want unexpected money in the mail, in an amount from 300 to 1000 dollars within the next two weeks. In exchange, I will give you half of that amount.
I’ll take both bets–how could I not after shooting off my mouth? I have a few stipulations:
In regards to the “big money” spell: The fee will be ten percent, or $500,000. I’m somewhat concerned about whether the period of time will be sufficient, as you’ve increased the money by a factor of ten, thus decreasing the probability by Goddess knows how much, but I guess I’m willing to take a shot at it. I will need to find a lawyer who can draft a legally-binding contract (but that’s something I would’ve needed done in any case), which may take some time. But time we’ve got, right? At some point I will also need to get some personal data from you so that five years hence I can do an asset search–five hundred grand is an awful big check to write, and I can see the potential for someone to just go whistling off into obscurity, rather than pony up that kind of dough. No offense, but I don’t know your character–you’re just a faceless poster on a message board.
The “quick-money” spell: I’ll do it for 50 percent, with the following understandings: a) I’ll need a pic and your name, which you can snail mail to me. The city you’re living in would be nice, too, but not totally necessary. b) “Unexpected” money means just that–if you know you’ve got a tax refund or something coming in the mail, that doesn’t count. Repayment of an old debt by a friend you haven’t been in touch with recently would count, however, because you have no reason to expect it to show up in the near future (if ever). Other funds due you which you are either totally unaware of or have “slipped your mind” count. A monetary award from Aunt Esther’s will counts, though I’ll try not to kill relatives unnecessarily. c) If you receive under $300 in the specified time period or any amount of money a little later than two weeks after I’ve informed you that I’ve done the spell, you don’t need to pay (though I would appreciate an honorable mention). d) I will expect an accurate and honest public accounting from you either here on this thread or on another thread on the SDMB as far as reporting results. e) You agree that one test subject does not an accurate quasi-scientific test make, and that while I feel that I’m 80 percent effective in doing this stuff, my failure to stuff you into that 80 percent does not automatically brand me with fruitcake status. That’s why I wanted a larger group of test subjects–they didn’t just test Prozac on one guy before deciding it worked (or didn’t work). I think the stuff works, and I’m willing to give it a shot, but I’d rather not be publically branded a looney tune for my failure to bring you 300 bucks, should that occur.
Don’t we need some sort of penalty if this doesn’t work? Otherwise, either you’ll win and get free money, or you’ll lose and nothing will happen. Heck, I’d take that bet! All upside, no downside, particularly since you specifically said you couldn’t be mocked if it didn’t work. How about if the money doesn’t show, you pay $400k for the first, or $240 for the second. If you’re 80% sure this will happen, it’s even odd. Heck, make it $350k and $200, and the odds as estimated by you are in your favor.
Sign me up for the big money spell. I’ll settle for just $500,000 within five years. (That’s HALF A MILLION U.S. DOLLARS, just to be clear.) Since my sole source of income is Social Security at a whopping $9600 per year, you have your work cut out for you!
You also have to promise (this WILL be in writing!) that you do not use any personal information you gather FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE. If you do, you will owe me 10% of what you promised to deliver, even if you fail. You will not profit unless you do specifically and exclusively what you have promised to do.
So, to re-state: If you succeed, I get $450,000 and you get $50,000. If you fail, we both get nada. If you sell my personal info to anyone for any reason whatsoever, I get $50,000. If you use my personal info for anything other than the contracted task, you owe me $50,000. No matter what happens, I lose nothing.
Um, jab, you’ve essentially said, “Hey, I’ll sign a contract that if I’m worth 500k after 5 years, I’ll give you 50k. If I’m not, you owe me nothing.” Wouldn’t anyone be a fool to NOT accept that offer? It’s all upside with no downside. For the IPU’s sake, charge a penalty if he doesn’t deliver! Otherwise you’re taking a risk, and no matetr how small that risk, it is foolish for you to risk something if he risks nothing.
This is the problem with “magic.” If you can convince 300 people to agree to give you money in exchange for casting a spell, you cannot lose. Cha-ching. When I come back and say “it didn’t work,” you can simply write me off as one of the 20%.
How sure are you of your abilities? Enough to risk your own money?
What you’re not noticing here is that you guys get the same good deal I do–you’re not actually risking anything. If the spell doesn’t work, you’re not out anything. If it does work, you’re paying $50k in exchange for $500k–not a bad deal.
As far as a non-effectiveness penalty, do you think your doctor would agree to that, if he couldn’t heal you? Would your lawyer, if he couldn’t win your case? Would your car mechanic, if he couldn’t fix your car? Hell, no. Then why should I? In cases where you’re dealing with other “professionals” who can’t fix you, the best deal you can get (if they’re no good) is that you don’t have to pay them. That’s what I’m offering–if I’m any good, pay me. If not, don’t.
