Excellent, excellent.
So then, Svinlesha, you deny that there are people who believe in such things?
Didn’t Descartes use a similar line of thinking in his Meditations? That is, (very simply put) if one can conceive of an idea/ object, than it must exist in one form or another. A six headed lobster-man does no necessarily exist, but lobsters and heads do, and my imagination puts it all together in once composite image. However, we have a concept of a perfect God, and as no perfectly good creatures exist in our own experience, God must exist. Or something along those lines, it has been quite a number of years since I read them. IIRC, the main point of the Meditations was not proving that Descartes existed, but that God did. The logic he used to prove God’s existence has been thoroughly refuted in philosophical texts (and by himself, I believe) that what we have left to focus on was what we are all familiar with (the whole I think therefore I am bit). I, of course, don’t mean to impugn Descartes, I just want to bring up a bit of philosophical history.
Anyway, you certainly don’t have direct experiences with flying. But you know wind. You know exhilaration. You have an idea of the vantage point. Put them all together and you have your subjective perception of flight. You are not flying. If you ever did (jet pack, hang gliding, etc.) you might have been lucky enough to get the perception correct, but that does not mean you actually flew. I might guess what next week’s lottery numbers will be, but I could not say I knew what they were to be. All during my teens I spent quite a few hours with quite a few wimmens. But I experienced something quite different when I actually had one in the room with me.
The point being that just because I can weld previous experience, assumptions and desires into what I would consider a complete experience, does not give that experience objective validity. The OP wasn’t asking if anyone believes they can change their internal, subjective framework of reality. It is pretty much a given that one can change their subjective reality through many methods (drugs, hypnosis, trauma, etc.) there is no significant basis to claim it is magic that is inspiring the change. The OP asked if someone can, using magic, change physical reality in such a way that an impartial third party can observe. Anyone?
No, of course not. Lot of crazy people out there believe a lot of crazy things. I just mean that the sort of “magic” Czar refers to falls outside the mainstream concept of magic as understood by the vast majority of Neo-Pagans, Wiccans, and the like. And refuting the existence of that sort of comic book, D&D style magic doesn’t really refute all that much, IMHO.
Czar seems to think that his version of magic is the standard version, and that all these other versions are “re-definitions.” If he were to actually read up a bit on the subject, however, he’d probably discover that the opposite is true. “Magic” is a fuzzy term that includes a lot of different levels of meaning. Levitators and spoon-benders get pretty short shrift here.
As an example, we can take Aleister Crowley’s definition of magic: “Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the Will” (The Book of Thoth, pg.40). Crowley was the most infamous magician of the 20th Century, and one sees immediately here how broad his definition really is. In point of fact, for Crowley, the natural sciences are a branch of magic, one concerned primarily with the measurement of Nature.
So my contention is that Czar’s framing of the question “Does magic exist?” with the intent to refute it is analagous to asking, “Is the bible the actual word of God?” in an attempt to refute Christianity. There might be a lot of crazy people out there that believe that, but the overwhelming majority of Christians have a more nuanced understanding.
Sorry I keep hijacking your thread, C.
Yes, so broad as to be meaningless. If I don’t get to re-define words to mean what I want them to mean, then neither can Crowley.
This sounds like he included science in his definition to make “magick” more plausible and respectable. Frankly, he sounds desperate.
He made a challenge, that is, for someone to show him magic.
THAT’S ALL.
So far, the only thing he’s gotten has been a bunch of “Well, you’re not telling us what you want to see, so pooh-pooh to you.”
I see no evidence that he wants to refute the existence of magic. He’s challenged others to solidify the evidence that magic DOES exist. There’s a difference.
Well, shooting fireballs from your fingertips may be a bit much, but we did get a definition of magic from Freyr–who I don’t think is “the Jack Chick of Neo-Paganism” or anything like that–which included the idea of “using psychic powers to change external realities”.
You should be aware that there are a lot of Christians in the United States who view the Bible as pretty much just that. Perhaps dealing with this sort of thing colors the perceptions of skeptics over here about religion in general.
magic (noun)
1 a: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b: magic rites or incantations
2 a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b: something that seems to cast a spell: ENCHANTMENT
3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand.
I’m certain Czarcasm had meaning 1 a in mind. If all y’all are doing is 1 b, then you aren’t doing the kind of magic he wants to see demonstrated. (That’s something anyone can do, because all you’ve done is change your state of mind.) If all y’all are doing is 3, you’re probably not doing anything David Copperfield or Lance Burton can’t do. 2 is a metaphorical use: “the magic of the movies;” “the magic of a sunset.”
Place yer bets here, folks.
Is the next mis-post going to be about pagan-druidic “magick”?
Or is going to be how the poster just doesn’t understand what I’m looking for?
The only guarantee is that it will not be a straight answer to simple queation.
No.
Next question.
Well, one time, when I was living in Utah, I didn’t want to go to school, because it was so close to Christmas. So I stayed up all night chanting “Snow! Snow! Snow!”, and the next day it snowed.
Now, I’m not saying it was or wasn’t magic, I’m only reporting what happened…
Czarcasm I don’t think thatyou are going to get anybody who actually believes they can perform magic, in the traditional sense of the word. The SDMB is just not a good enviroment for those kinds of people. Just like you probably won’t have a great deal of Fundamental Christians. People that ignorant are only secure when they are surrounded by more, powerful ignorance.
They are probably happily chatting away at AOL or Yahoo! right now, discussing the fireballs they shot out of their arses the other night during the seance. They aren’t coming over here.
Exactly. We frown upon people who claim they can do something extraordinary and then fizzle out when they’re called on it.
Originally posted by flowbark
4) If any sort of dramatic magic existed, we’d know about it. There’s this institution known as the financial market as well as Randi’s prize.
[/quote]
Not so fast, flowbark. Someone with reliable mind-reading or prophesying powers might stay quiet about it. Discretion might have its rewards.
Of course, people like that would be unlikely to post in this forum or establish a temple for that matter.
Lighting your farts doesn’t count.
The thing is, all you pro-magic people are not being straight with us when you claim that no one really thinks they can see the future, levitate, heal, etc. That’s just not true. Talk to any new-age person and they’ll tell you they think that stuff happens all the time.
Psychics claim to be able to do all kinds of stuff every day. Astrologers, Tarot readers, palmists, dowsers. Are you trying to tell me that most pagans believe that dowsing doesn’t work? Sure, on the SDMB you claim that dowsing doesn’t work. How come every pagan I’ve ever met believed in dowsing, or aura reading, or astrology?
How can you sit there and claim that only the radical fringe believes in psychic powers? Hell, half of America believes in psychic powers. Are you all trying to say that most pagans DON’T? Please. This is hardly a straw man.
All we get from you all is obfuscation, word-play, semantics, solipsism and epistemology. And why is that? Because you cannot demonstrate any workable magic or psychic powers. And you will never convince me that you have magic or psychic powers until you demonstrate that you have magic or psychic powers.
Originally posted by Lemur866:
Yep. That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’m a practicing Wiccan, and neither I nor anyone else in my coven can do any of the things Czarcasm has asked about. Nor have I met anyone who claims to be able to do them. If I did personally meet someone who made those claims, I’d ask to see an example, too.
This is exactly why some of the pagan SDMB members have taken offense - we don’t have the beliefs some of the posters ascribe to us. Kindly recall that “magic users” (as defined in this thread) and pagans are two different groups of people, with a small overlap.
We now return you to your originally scheduled debate.
I did not claim that Wiccans believe they can perform the variety of “magic” I am looking for, and neither did anyone else. In fact, I have said repeatedly that it is not the Wiccan/Pagan definition of “magick” I am looking for. What part of "I am NOT asking about “magick” are all of you not understanding? Despite the fact that what you believe in does not pertain to this thread whatsoever, you persist in replying as if any of us could possibly be mistaken about your beliefs.
We are not.
We know what you believe in.
We know that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread.
Do you get it?
Czar - all the grief this thread is causing you? It’s not because certain people are trying to be obtuse, and it’s not because they actually believe in the supernatural. It’s a matter of self-image - they don’t want to think of themselves as “People Who Don’t Believe In Magic”.
Frankly, I can’t really blame them.
I can.
Czarcasm, I understand your frustration here. But if you do understand what pagans believe, and I did not quote you in my post,
Then I am not referring to you!