Let me add to the record that, in my opinion, painting modern Pagans’ “magick” as something that produces parlour-trick results is completely inappropriate. Maybe many believe that some similar effects could possibly be produced, just as many Christians/Jews/Moslems/Whatevers believe that prayer has, in the past, produced miracles from God. But I’m sure most Pagans scoff at the idea that a magick ritual produced a Stockholm snowstorm (In winter! The thought!) as much as Christians scoff at Pat Robertson’s claim that prayer turned Hurricane Gloria away from his Hampton Roads estate.
I’d also like to note that the original post does not even mention Paganism, so could not be denigrating their beliefs. It merely asked for evidence that magic rituals could directly affect the material world. I can totally understand how Svinlesha could have felt that she had reasonably answered the OP’s request, but I feel that, as second-hand, anecdotal, and irreproducable, it was inadequate.
Gar, sorry. I hate when that happens. I shall not make the same mistake again–at least on you. Also, my apologies, I missed your PEAR post. You’re right, there was a call for examples, and it was good of you to provide one, even if it didn’t go very far. I thought you were going on about it after the discussion had moved on, but I was in the wrong.
sigh Maybe I should give up trying to get a straight answer to a simple question. I, and others, have given a fairly simple definition of what is being sought. I have given examples of what I am looking for. I have given examples of what I am not looking for. To those of you who will continue to pretend not to understand the premise of this thread, I have a NEW assignment:
Open your dictionary, and look up the word “obtuse”.
No I can’t. My associate Svinlesha (Greetings, S!) claims to know somebody who did so, but didn’t provide sufficient evidence for us to evaluate that claim. I also have friends of friends who have done spooky stuff, but I don’t take those claims seriously. (Close questioning of the reporters in question has in my experience led to a certain lack of clarity regarding the purported event.)
Magic, defined as the product of a ritual that has certain psychological effects exists IMHO. LunaSea gave an example of this in another thread. Interesting, educational for me, but outside of the conventional definition of magic.
I know a Pagan who casted a number of spells on behalf of her pet, with mixed success. IMO, Pagan spell-casting seems analogous to prayer here; they don’t expect it to be successful enough to be persuasively established, at least to a nonbeliever. And commentary about the utility of magic (or prayer) is not necessarily appreciated.
The I Ching also exists. After tossing Bohdi sticks, flipping coins or invoking another random process, the book is opened to the corresponding page and decent advice (or at least a decent stream of consciousness) results. This experiment is highly repeatable, even if the evaluation is somewhat subjective.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We’re not going to come close to getting that.
My take:
Nobody has magic powers of the sort that C inquires about here.
There is some evidence for a more diffuse sort of ESP / Magic / weird sht. The Princeton group provides one sort of example. A bunch of TMs who meditated in a mideast country, then documented a decline in the crime rate (over 5 days?) represents another example (see Journal of Conflict Resolution article). A meta-analysis of various ESP studies shows a significant effect that is not in the individual ESP studies themselves (SRI International, executed years after they had embarrassed themselves in the 1970s).
I am dubious about the preceding, but it does constitute (weak) evidence for low-magnitude weird sh*t. An analogy might be sacrificing a goat to the gods and being rewarded with 146 inches of rain the following year rather than 144.5. Effects of that sort would be difficult to discern (and not particularly useful, IMHO).
3b) Discussion of #2 is really for another set of threads.
If any sort of dramatic magic existed, we’d know about it. There’s this institution known as the financial market as well as Randi’s prize.
*[sub]Cite: Heard about it on the radio during the Gulf War, Talk of the Nation with Daniel Schorr (sp). Twice. [/sub]
I think there is a bit of a flaw in Newberg’s reasoning. If a brain scan is used to detect the brains reaction to eating an apple, it will show activity in certain specific regions. We can then clearly see that the eating of the apple triggers that activity, and that activity is responsible for certain sensations (a pleasurable taste, whatever).
In the case of spiritual experience, it is marked by a lack of activity. In general, a lack of response (neural activity, in this case) can be associated with a lack of stimulus. By switching the term “neurological changes” for the more correct standard of measure, neurological activity, Newberg is avoiding the issue. If we are simply talking about the vague concept of neurological changes, then the apple is analogous to the meditation as the agent of change. So, yes, the brain scan has proven that the brain responds to meditation and apples equally.
Then, exactly, WHO were you addressing it to? I’ve never made the claim about fire-balls, levitation or mind-reading. I brought out my definition of magic (from Bonewits) in order that we might come to a consensus of what we were looking for and then talk about what evidence would convince you that it’s real. But you didn’t want that, you want “magic” (whatever the hell that is).
Have you bothered to read the books I suggested? I was trying to give you a grounding in the theory and practice of what I call magic. If you want me to do “magic” at least do me the courtesy of trying to understand what I call “magic.”
And if you want examples of name-calling in this thread, go back to my first posting in this thread (back on page 2) and I give two cites of other Dopers name calling.
Tell ya what, Freyr. I will enthusiastically read your recommended texts the moment someone provides a verifiable, non-fraudulent demonstration of what I’ve been calling strong-form magic. That is, according to the definition you provided from Bonewits, “using various altered states of consciousness . . . to have access to and control over one’s psychic talents . . . to change . . . exterior realities.”
Until somebody demonstrates that such magic exists, I have about as much interest in studying magic as I do in studying cold fusion.
Incidentally, my “weasels” remark was not directed at you, as you have been nothing but helpful in these discussions by identifying what most pagans apparently believe when it comes to magic. I have no complaint at all with regards to magic that alters “interior realities.” My remark was directed at those people (primarily in the earlier threads) who claimed they could perform strong-form magic, but have steadfastly declined to back up their claims. As to them, the comment stands.
Subjective reality is no less real than objective reality it simply is less universal.
Ever had a dream where you were flying? Well objectively that is impossible because being unable to fly you have no idea what flying would be like and therefore your subconscious mind can’t duplicate it. But you can still remember what it was like to fly. That is one example of subjective reality.
It works while you are awake as well. You can apply scientific terms like hallucination or delusion but the experience itself is real to the person experiencing it.
So in answer to your question I know I accomplished it by whether or not I perceive the results I intended. Even if those results are not measurable from an external frame of reference.
‘Nother skeptic checking in, but I think I can step up to Czar’s challenge. I don’t believe this has been covered in this thread yet, if so, my apologies for missing it.
First off, let me see if what I am thinking of fits the bill. You want someone to change objective physical reality merely through an exertion of the will. You will allow chanting, singing, relics (or a substitute ’Floyd album) or other paraphernalia to be used, as long as there is no causal link between the objects used and the end effects (other than the object’s effects on the psyche). Sound good?
What about faith healers? Ha ha ha… no, really. Seriously. Come on now, roll your eyes back down and give it a bit of a think. Faith healers. Bunch of con artists. Besides gullibility, what are they taking advantage of? The placebo effect. From the On-Line Medical Dictionary:
Deeply embedded in science, the avoidance thereof ingrained in the design of virtually all reputable experiments, is the concept that a person’s expectations/ beliefs (i.e. their will) can have an outcome on the experiment (or treatment, etc.) that has no relation to the actual regimen being applied. The placebo effect is a catch-all phrase for an as yet unexplained phenomenon of causality between an individual’s will and their physical bodies. One can say that it is merely a yet-to-be-understood extension of the body’s immune system, but it does not take much digging to find examples that go well beyond the body’s resources in wrestling with affliction.
Is it magic? I certainly wouldn’t call it that. But it does fit pretty well with the definition. It does (to me, at this juncture) seem to suggest that our will can affect reality in ways that though named, are not quite explicable. I’d be interested in hearing this get tossed about.
Freyr, I told you what I thought of his definitions. I also told you what type of “magic” I am looking for. Once again, let me give you some examples:
Levitation
Mind Reading
Teleportation of Objects or Self
Changing One Element To Another Element By Psychic Powers
Fortelling The Future Without The Use Of Outside Information
Talking To Dead People
Telekinesis
Dowsing For Specific Objects In A Controlled Situation
What I am not looking for:
How chanting and/or the pagan definition of “Magick” has changed how you or your group views the outside world.
I REPEAT-I am not refering to the definition of Druidic “Magick” that has been brought up repeatedly on this thread despite the fact that is blindingly obvious that I am not looking for that type of magic.
I swear that if I tried to start a thread dedicated to talking about the use of witnesses in court, I would get a large group of people talking about witnessing for Christ!
To all of you who want to talk about other definitions of “magic(k)” as a part of your religion, go start your own thread. If you want to create some sort of consensus of all the definitions so that you can all feel “special”, go start your own thread.
If you wish to respond to this thread by addressing the issues brought forward here, go for it.
Well, C, I think you’re essentially setting up a straw magic and then knocking it down, but if ritual leading to meteorological changes counts as an example of magic, then I had a friend in Stockholm once who…
Nevermind.
I’m almost starting to feel sorry for you, man.
On a personal side note:
[hijack] Greeting, friend flowbark! [/hijack]
Finally, if anybody really wants to know about magic, I suggest they spend some time thoroughly investigating Rhythmdvl’s sig line!
Strangers stopping strangers,
just to shake their hand (**shakes Rhythmdvl’s hand **)
And everybody’s playing
in the Heart of Gold band…
You first assume that it’s impossible for us to have no idea what flying would be like. An assumption with no merit, I may add. There’s a difference between “needing to experience something before being able to have an idea of it” and “having an idea of something makes it real”.
Of course. But that’s not what the OP is asking for. If you want to talk about “I just made this coin levitate in my own personal reality”, head over to MPSIMS.
You should already have it, if you have an idea of it, right?
