Does practice or sleep make perfect?

[dolphinboy]

We’ve all heard the phrase, “practice makes perfect”. Sometimes, I’ll pick up my acoustic guitar and try to play a song I memorized years ago. I get halfway through and then forget the chord sequence. I’ll pull out the sheet music and relearn the song. However, no matter how many times I try, I can’t play it from memory without making mistakes. After 15 minutes of trying, I quit in frustration. At some point the next day, I will pick up my guitar and attempt to play the song I was having trouble with the day before. Without looking at the chord sheet I can play it perfectly the first time. This has happened to me multiple times. Does this happen because I slept on it and my brain put it all together for me, or perhaps for some other reason? Has anyone else experienced this?

[Cardigan]

I wonder if it has something to do with muscle memory. You know, like riding a bike. Maybe you’re making the process too conscious/intentional at first. Then once you’ve ‘given up’ and your mind has nothing left to prove, your muscle memory takes over and does what it’s always done.

[dolphinboy]

You may be on to something with muscle memory being part of it. Perhaps it’s because I walked away from it for long enough that that my brain is relaxed and so are my muscles at that point.

[DSeid]

Yeah I suspect that certain “procedural memories”, once learned, need to just happen; that thinking consciously about it gets in the way. Closest for me (not musical) is passwords. Sometimes I just pull a blank on my sign in. When I do no amount of thinking about it will help. I have to walk away for a second, distract myself and then just type. And it is there. It just happens. Or it doesn’t.

[dolphinboy]

So you’re saying the song is still in my memory, but for some reason I can’t recall it when I try hard to do so. Walking away and coming back 12 hours later somehow releases the memory for me with having to concentrate on it.

[Llama_Llogophile]

When I was involved in human performance research in college and grad school, periods of distraction were often a part of behavioral experiments. You might give someone two memory tests with a physical dexterity task in between. I remember studies looking at the interval length, types of distractions, etc.

I experience this all the time and I particularly notice it when I do crosswords. I can be stuck on a clue for a long time, get up to use the bathroom, come back a few minutes later and suddenly I have the answer. Happens so frequently that I now try to cultivate this sort of distraction when I’m having problems at work. A physical task works well, but anything that takes my mind away from the immediate problem, even briefly, seems to be helpful.

[DSeid]

Yes. I don’t think you forgot it. You just temporarily couldn’t remember it.

[Moonrise]

@DSeid

Yeah I suspect that certain “procedural memories”, once learned, need to just happen; that thinking consciously about it gets in the way. Closest for me (not musical) is passwords. Sometimes I just pull a blank on my sign in. When I do no amount of thinking about it will help. I have to walk away for a second, distract myself and then just type. And it is there. It just happens. Or it doesn’t.

I noticed long ago that the best way for me to mess up a piano piece I’m playing is to actively think about what I’m supposed to do next.

Conversely, I often find myself finishing a piece without even realizing it. I’ll be sitting there and wow, it’s done. It’s as if the playing was happening all by itself. It’s quite a pleasant feeling, actually.

Most of the time, my practice falls somewhere between these two extremes.

[pjd]

@Moonrise

I noticed long ago that the best way for me to mess up a piano piece I’m playing is to actively think about what I’m supposed to do next.

Absolutely this !
I’m currently learning the sax solo from Street Life.. it takes a lot
of effort to not think about what I’m doing !

[Eonwe]

https://www.sportsmed.theclinics.com/article/S0278-5919(04)00121-8/abstract

When contemplating the learning of new skilled actions and behaviors, particularly those involved in athletic endeavors, practice is often believed to be the only determinate of improvement. Although repeatedly performing a new task often results in learning benefits, leading to the adage “practice makes perfect,” a collection of studies over the past decade has begun to change this concept. Instead, these reports suggest that after initial training, the human brain continues to learn in the absence of further practice, and that this delayed improvement develops during sleep. This article reviews these studies of what is now becoming known as sleep-dependent memory processing and focuses on the effects of sleep in the development of procedural skills.

… there are lots of studies that indicate that sleep is an important part of the learning process, particularly motor skill development (like playing an instrument).

[Infovore]

That happens to me when I’m learning drums, too. I’m still a beginner, so it takes a little while for me to get the muscle memory down, but when I try it again the next day (or sometimes even later the same day) it seems to work better.

[BigT]

@dolphinboy

So you’re saying the song is still in my memory, but for some reason I can’t recall it when I try hard to do so. Walking away and coming back 12 hours later somehow releases the memory for me with having to concentrate on it.

I would suspect that practicing it helped with recalling the muscle memory, but that the active thought got in the way. So coming back later, you’re not still actively trying to “relearn” it and so the muscle memory is more easily able to take over, as it is now fresher.

[DSeid]

@Eonwe

sleep is an important part of the learning process, particularly motor skill development (like playing an instrument).

In this case it seems to me (could be wrong) that this is not learning the skill, it was learned in the past, but remembering it.

That said you here is some detail about how different sleep stages are thought to be essential for the formation of the two main categories of memory: procedural and declarative.

Numerous studies have demonstrated that sleep facilitates the consolidation of both declarative and procedural memories. Slow oscillations (Huber et al. 2004; Marshall et al. 2006) and slow wave sleep (SWS) (Alger et al. 2012; Diekelmann et al. 2012) are thought to especially benefit hippocampus-dependent, declarative memory. Meanwhile, various forms of implicit and procedural memory have been linked to rapid eye movement (REM) sleep (Plihal and Born 1997; Mednick et al. 2009) or non-REM stage 2 (N2) sleep (Walker et al. 2002; Tucker and Fishbein 2009).

A potential mechanism of offline memory consolidation during sleep is memory “reactivation,” in which patterns of neural activity in the hippocampus and cortex associated with awake experience are reiterated after learning. For example, when rats sleep after being trained on a spatial learning task, hippocampal “place cells” fire again in the same order as when the animals were being trained on the task during wake (Lee and Wilson 2002; Ji and Wilson 2007). Such neural reactivation not only occurs in the hippocampus, but also concurrently in a variety of cortical areas (Ji and Wilson 2007; Peyrache et al. 2009; Kaefer et al. 2020). The recent advent of optogenetics has allowed experimental investigation of memory reactivation in animal models. Experimentally disrupting the hippocampal ripple oscillations during which reactivation occurs impairs memory (Girardeau et al. 2009; Ego-Stengel and Wilson 2010). Conversely, selectively reactivating neural ensembles related to a particular memory appears to induce consolidation, particularly when this manipulation is applied during sleep or light amnesia (de Sousa et al. 2019).

The study that that bit introduces demonstrates that awake eyes closed test and sleep for half an hour both allow for memory consolidation that a distraction task prevents. I don’t think that informs in comparison to sleep that gets to cycle through the sleep stages.