So God arranged it so that the only way Satan could receive love was by tricking us into giving it to him…making God directly responsible for all of Satan’s further actions.
Even the quote of what Jesus was supposed to have said,in Matthew and Mark, that he would return in his fathers’s glory with his angels while some of them standing there were still alive, didn’t happen. But so many use Revelations to explain this, when they use the apparent visions of John, The real apperance in the flesh, suggests a real apperance in the flesh as was recorded after the Ressurection of the dead, when he had Thomas put his finger in the wounds to prove it was really himself!
What is the point of a all knowing being creating children who he intended to kill or send to eternal punishment when he could have just as well not created them to begin with? I wouldn’t conceive a child I knew ahead of time that would be evil, and I am a long , long way from being all knowing!
I asked you first, and who mentioned eternal punishment, that’s not the God I know.
God takes responsibility for it yes, that btw is the who Jesus thing is about.
It is also God’s responsibility to bring about a much larger good from all of this so this painful period will be seen in it’s context of a much greater good.
interesting, as i can see a duality in one being. since the op didn’t declare any specific denomination, i will use philosophy. when st Augustine was reflecting about why did he do those things he did when he was younger, he came to the conclusion that it was acts like destroying a crop field entirely , for no reason was preformed by him and his friends , because it made them closer to being a god, cause only a god can do such a thing.
when you consider that the Greeks and pretty much a majority of the beliefs at that time believed themselves as part of the thing which creates and therefore can not be held responsible for their actions because they are simply doing what creation had made them do. the Christians introduced a detached god, thereby making all matters one of choice, good and bad. so, it would seem, that the god and Satan would be the same thing depending on your perception of good and bad. therefore i would say that yes, according to the way christian philosophy works, the christian Satan is fully aware of everything, further, it remains ambiguous as to what is good and bad. in which case a fluctuation of opinion would explain the acceptance of murder within the ideals of war but not in matters of the heart. so one can only assume that good and bad are the same agent.therefore i would suspect that within the boundaries of the debate, Satan and god are one and the same.therefore he (Satan) would be fully aware of everything.
I think the confusion is coming from us misunderstanding one another over which particular flavor of Christianity we’re talking about. Each denomination has a different take on exactly how much God chooses to know at a given time, and exactly how far he’s applied his omnipresence/omnipotence. Being *able *to figure out how certain events will likely end up is not the same as knowing exactly what will happen every time. Plus the fact that often times when God says that something’s going to happen, it’s because he intends to make it happen, and follows through.
Isaiah 55:11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.
As I understand it, God is described as having these abilities, but never described as having fully used them in every single case. Like a math whiz who chooses to not figure out a certain formula. Just because he can, doesn’t mean he does.
Isaiah 14:24 Jehovah of armies has sworn, saying: “Surely just as I have figured, so it must occur; and just as I have counseled, that is what will come true
And there’s nothing in the Bible that says God knew for certain that Satan would rebel. As I said earlier, everyone’s been given free will. It does give evidence that he can know things, and that he often does, but if you’re talking about a God who knows everything because it’s already been pre-determined then we’re obviously coming from a different place. I do not believe that, and I don’t think the Bible teaches that. If anyone suggests that to be the true nature of the God of the Bible, I’d say that shows an lack of understanding of the Bible’s description of God - but more importantly a skewed perception of the world, likely caused by a crappy life experience up til now.
I just agree to diagree with you, I am sorry but your thinking doesn’t make sense to me. Being in Hell is supposed to be the punishment for sinners who haven’t repented even if they didn’t know better. No one can say in truth they KNOW God. one can believe about God, but to say one knows God they must show proof, and you have never shown any proof,just your word or belief!
kanicbird does not believe in the Judeo/Christian god, or much else attributed to any mainstream religion, so debating him on those terms is pointless.
If God is not all knowing , then he is not all powerful, I Know and it can be proven that the Bible was written by humans, Humans make up stories,I have read that the Biblical God regretted creating man, many Christian religions say God is every where, if that were true it would mean God is every thing.
Because the Bible, like any thing written by humans is not necessarily true. I do not think the Bible is God’s word, nor do I believe it was inspired by God. Human Bishops during the time of Constantine were called together to unite the Christian Church,many writings were destroyed, and for many Centuries it was the only accepted version of what God wanted or inspired. Possiblily for political reasons more than anything,because Constantine saw the advantages of using Christianity for the Roman Empire.
Jesus was quoted as saying Scripture is good for teaching, he never called it the word of God.
Just to be clear:
It was not Jesus, but Paul, in a letter to Timothy, who used the phrase “scripture is good for teaching”.
2 Timothy 3:16*All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
*
And Jesus did believe that the scriptures were the word of God. He quoted them extensively, and also used them as evidence of his position as Messiah.
Mark 12:26 *But concerning the dead, that they are raised up, did YOU not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?
*
Luke 4:16-21 And he came to Naz′a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18“Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, 19to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” 20With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. 21Then he started to say to them: “Today this scripture that YOU just heard is fulfilled.”
I am not interested in being argumentative with you. I’d just rather not have factually incorrect statements being made. If we’re going to say “The Bible says this” then it should actually be written there, and if you can’t scratch up a cite, then don’t make the statement.
Jesus did say,“Is it not written in your law etc.”( I believe it is John 10) when speaking to the priests and Pharisees (whom he seemed to despise). And It is a proven fact, that the Bible and any writings or teachings are not of God, but of man. So belief in the Bible is in reality a belief in what some other human said about his belief of a God.
It has been many years since I have read the Bible, but one day I will check the quotes of Jesus and see if I can find the passage as I remember it. The Jewish people did not look at Jesus as the Messiah any more than the Simon, who in the 4th century BCE, also was called the Messiah by some, and believed he should die for the people. To me it is like some Christians who say the RC religion is not really Christian, but use their writings and accept the Testement that the Bishops of Rome and the Orthodox were the people who decided what was of God, or what was inspired by God! Like today Christianity is the most divided of all religions.
Jesus also said he only came for the lost sheep of Israel, so His purpose was not to save all men.
Thanks for the reply. That is a very interesting take on it - Lucifer as a Prometheus-like figure.
There are so many scripture quotes in this thread, and as I mentioned, it is all very one-sided in God’s favor. Without Satan’s side of the story, I don’t think we can truly comment on his plans or motivations - he might have one hell of a good reason.
He does use the Bible as his reference or at least his translation of it.
Again, this here’s Great Debates, on a factually oriented message board. If you can’t scratch up a cite, don’t make the statement. Even if it’s assumed true by you and all your friends, it doesn’t mean anyone else will take you seriously. And obviously we’re talking about religion here - I know not many automatically consider it to be truth - but:
If you say “The Bible says this”, then show me where. If you say “Christians all say this”, then show me where. Sweeping statements are a red flag that someones arguing from an opinion, not from facts.
When come back, bring cite. www.biblos.com is a good place to start.
I don’t recall ever saying “all Christians” about anything, but if I had it was in error, I try to stay with facts and I try to say" some Christians" or “some” people etc. I can never declare that all people do anything, except be born or die.I am well pleased if someone can prove me wrong. I want the truth not supposition.
The difference as I see it, from the interpretation that I have vs. more conventional interpretations is the spirit in which the person’s interpretation is made. I try to interpret it in the spirit of Love (God is Love), meaning from a Loving God, using that God’s spirit for my interpretation (aka The Holy Spirit).
We all know that scriptures can be interpreted to have people murder, oppress, as well as to lay burdens of guilt and fear of Hell on people. The interpretation to me depends on the spirit the person uses and they will find the god they want in it.
I do believe also that every work is a work of God (though man), so anything can be scriptures all dependent on the spirit of interpretation that one chooses to use. The Bible is just the particular one that God has used to teach me this, and one that I know pretty well so refer to it often.
So while you state that every work is a work of man, to me it is also a work of one of God’s children, and therefore also the work of the eternal God.
To be fair, that’s more political than anything else. The wounds of the thirty years’ war are still fresh to a lot of reformed communities, because it’s something of an oral tradition. Protestants and Catholics fighting in Ireland being a prime example - they’re not fighting about papal authority. Pretty much every reformed Christian child eventually asks why they don’t listen to the pope, and the answer usually isn’t theologically based, but about how the pope is corrupt, murderous, defies the bible, greedy, etc.
Of course however, the lack of papal oversight leads to more and more (possibly heretical, by Catholic standards) theories about the nature of God are accepted in reformed churches, and that can lead to theological differences.
The premise of the original poster’s question is rooted in literal interpretation of the Bible and the various extrapolations (mainly from the Middle Ages) about Satan that stem from that interpretation. Do we take it as prose or poetry? A fundamental question. My take is that to see it as anything but poetry is foolishness. Look at the source material predating the Bible, look at scripture from other civilizations, and it becomes clear that the major events and characters in the Old and New Testaments are metaphors.
Satan, like God, is not an external being but the self destructive impulses harbored within us all. To ask why Satan persists in attempts to destroy a world is much like asking an alcoholic why he continues to drink.
Yes, that is your belief, no proof and if it works for you fine,but is not an answer. You have every right to your beliefs, just as all people do, but belief is not fact until it can be proven. It would seem that: God tells everyone what they want to hear!