Utah of course was settled by Mormons and they still dominate every aspect of life there, including the political system. It’s hard to see how the separation of church and state can operate there as both are so completely intertwined.
I realize that there are many non-Mormons in Utah (about 30%?). Do they really get a fair shake? Any Utahans out there (or is it Utahns)? Although of course I’d be interested in all responses.
In what ways are they “so completely intertwined”? You are basically asking folks to prove a negative, but the way to approach the issue is to list the ways you think it isn’t working and then see if those actually conflict with 1st amendment jurisprudence.
They managed to make coffee, cola drinks, and alcohol legal.
In a book I read about Mark Hofmann, there was a passage about his trial for forgery and murder. Hofmann had adamantly denied his guilt, and some agreed with him. But some piece of evidence introduced was like a bombshell, making it clear to everyone present that he was guilty. Judge Paul Grant made a statement that had the trappings of an official pronouncement, but was along the lines of, “I would like to say that we have felt the presence of Satan in this courtroom”. I remember thinking, you don’t hear things like that in trials around here.
Current SLC mayor is a lesbian Catholic. The last 4 or 5 mayors have been democrats.
Utah actually cast the vote that put the 21st Amendment (repealing Prohibition) over the 3/4 threshold for ratification.
Absolutely anecdotal, and 2+ decades old, but my college roommate got his first job in Utah in the 80s. I’d never heard him mention any religion good or bad in the 8+ years I’d known him, but in less than a year he was complaining about the waste of money and effort from Mormons pushing legislation through local governmental units which was destined to be stricken down in the courts.
Sorry I lack specifics, and I acknowledge the possibility my buddy may have been mistaken or biased. He loved the state parks and the skiing, not so much the people.
Anyone who has not lived in Utah or worked with companies which are based in Utah will simply not understand how pervasive the LDS Church is in business, politics, and education of the state, to the extent that decisions about whom and how decisions will be rendered on any number of topics from science education to infrastructure development to manufacturing are passed down from church fathers to political and corporate management. The LDS Church is to Utah as the Catholic church was to the pre-French Revolution Holy Roman Empire; companies and political figures may disagree with the church only at their own peril, and anyone who speaks out against official positions will be socially ostracized and suffer career suicide.
The funny thing is, the Mormons who come from outside of Utah are even more shocked and distressed about the influence of the LDS Church than non-LDS Utah natives. The Church they know (from their satellite ministries) is socially and politically moderate, and generally speaking very accepting of others. All non-Utah LDS members I’ve known are polite and charitable both to Mormons and others, and reserved in their criticism even when they do not agree on moral principle. Within Utah, the shocking degree of casual bigotry and provincialism is unparalleled except in the Deep South, and the desperation to cling to unsubstantiated and disproven claims is nothing short of bizarre. As an example, there is significant pressure to contribute to and/or participate in archeological digs in Mexico in search of ‘lost tribe’ artifacts despite there being zero actual evidence that Joseph Smith’s claims had any legitimacy whatsoever.
The LDS Church runs Utah, lock, stock, and barrel. What’s funny is that they also own or have significant share in most of the major corporations with gambling interests in Los Vegas and Reno. Well, nobody can say that they aren’t astute at business.
Stranger
SLC has been less than 50% Mormon for a while, and I think even the wider metrapolitan area is just barely over 50%.
I have a Catholic friend who worked in Utah at a small public university for a couple years.
He said the role of the church wasn’t too bad, for the most part, but he had the hardest time getting his employer not to automatically deduct a tithe from his paycheck to go to the LDS. I’m not sure how successful he was at stopping the automatic deduction, but I’m pretty sure he got his money in the end.
That was kind of shocking to me. He didn’t even have the option to direct the funds to his own church. It was LDS or nothing.
That should’ve taken about one second to point out it’s illegal to take such deductions from an employer’s pay without their written consent.
I think there are plenty of people in this country who would have no problem imaging this. I think mainstream Christians only notice it in Utah because it’s the only state which doesn’t reflect a mainstream Christian viewpoint.
But ask an atheist or a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Hindu if mainstream Christian belief permeates society in the other forty-nine states and I think you’ll find the consensus is yes.
That’s what happened.
But it did take longer than necessary to get it straightened out, and a lawsuit takes more of both time and money than the hassle of a few weeks or even months of annoyance. Sometimes, being in a position of little power or influence really sucks.
It’s not like pointing out that something is blatantly illegal works all the time. Otherwise, a lot of things in this country would be very different.
Sure, politicians of all creeds find it necessary to make explicit reference to the Judeo-Christian God even if their personal record of piety is on par with Homer Simpson. (Perhaps ironically, one of the most sincerely pious chief executives, Jimmy Carter, almost never explicitly referred to “God” in his speeches and was taken to task for it by the hypocrites of the Moral Majority.) What seems “normal” to a mainstream Christian certainly seems dominated by Christian beliefs by others. However, in Utah, the LDS Church has very deliberate and pervasive control of industry and government, to the extent that no significant decision is made that isn’t debated and ultimately approved by church fathers, or in the case of wide-ranging issues, by the senior leadership of the LDS Church. The degree of control the church has is unmatched elsewhere in the US, and the o.p. is correct to question that there is any de facto separation of church and state in Utah.
Stranger
Everywhere I’ve lived, there’s a government agency that fixes a problem like that.
ETA: I still don’t buy the LDS church controls government in Utah or dictates how elected officials vote or act.
I lived in Utah for almost three years. Lived in Salt Lake City, worked in Provo.
I don’t think that a Mormon living in Utah sees any problem with the way things are there. Ex-Mormons and non-Mormons, though, have frequently taken issue with the way the government and businesses are run.
Technically speaking, there is a clear division between church and state in Utah. The first amendment just says that Congress can’t make any religion the official one.
For the religious, separation of church and state is a hurdle to jump through. They have a belief system that says they need to do X. Thus, they want to do X, but can’t, because the law says they need another reason. So then they have to find one.
The problem is that there’s no way to convince the business owner (or the government) that the position is wrong. It’s what’s taught in church; that’s what makes it right. So any counter-arguments are immediately shut down.
It’s not an explicit mission statement or anything. The LDS church doesn’t have a membership that meets up every week to plot the demise of the unbelievers (as far as I know. I’ve never attended service in an LDS church). But they do look over their religious texts and try to follow it as closely as possible. The problems arise when they want everyone to be working off the same playbook, LDS or not.
Emphasis added. Specifics, please? I certainly would expect the government to made up of a large number of Mormons, but there are a large number of Mormons in the state. Can you point to specific policies that support your claim? And especially as it relates to the 1st Amendment.
Not saying I think you’re wrong, it’s just that you made a pretty strong assertion without backing it up with any evidence.
The evidence is by necessity largely anecdotal. The LDS Church takes great pains to not be seen as directly influencing or lobbying for anything not directly related to Church activities, but the influence is well known by anyone involved in state and local politics.
Blog: The Role of The LDS Church in Utah’s Politics
Salt Lake Tribune: “How Utah’s Capital Marches to a Mormon Beat”
Deseret News: “Poll: LDS Church influence over Legislature ‘just about right.’”
HuffPo Blog: The LDS Church and Utah Politics
I have personally never lived in Utah, but I’ve spent a substantial amount of time there for both business and vacation, and it is widely acknowledged by people living there that the Church has influence over all major decisions made at all levels of government. Salt Lake City is regarded by most Mormons as kind of a Utah version of Berkeley, and the decisions to liberalize alcohol sales laws (which largely came hand-in-hand with the 2000 SLC Olympics) were a contentious decision that the Church finally came down in favor of for economic reasons.
I do want to note that I don’t have any particular grievence with the LDS Church, and don’t consider their beliefs and lack of substantiation for them to be any more or less credible than, well, basically any other religion. The LDS Church (and individual Mormons that I know) to a goodly amount of charitable works (albeit biased by their religious beliefs) and it is no small part due to the influence of the LDS Church which has protected natural preserves and prevented overdevelopment of some of the uniquely beautiful areas of the state. But if you are a non-Mormon or non-conforming Mormon in Utah, you are in the distinct minority socially and politically. The lack of protection against ‘hate crimes’ is particularly notable, as is their strong views on the traditional role of women and lack of vocational support and protection against harassment.
Stranger