Separation of church and state: the Mormon Supreme Court?

Great Debates
1

The Utah Supreme Court is now 100% Mormon. Am I the only one who has a problem with that?

Whatever happened to “separation of church and state”? Or did I miss something?

P.S. I’d be grateful if someone could find a link for this article that doesn’t include the admittedly messy Search function leftovers. I’ve been ransacking Google, and I can’t find it anywhere else except at the Salt Lake City Tribune archives. I believe I originally read it in the Chicago Tribune, but their archives don’t seem to be online. And I’m too cheap to pay AP for it. :rolleyes:

2

Evidently not. I was going to start a thread just now about polygamy. I watched a two hour program last night on A & E about it. There are people now who believe that the federal government should intervene in Utah to protect the women and children victimized by this practice. The state of Utah is doing absolutely nothing.

Needs2know

3

The expression “separation of church and state” is a shorthand, not an actual legal principle. On the U.S. federal level, the concept of “seapartion of church and state” is manifested by two provisions in the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion,” (a.k.a. “the Establishment clause”) “nor prohibit the free exercise thereof” (a.k.a. “the Free Exercise clause”).

Obviously, the Establishment clause is focused on the passage of laws that directly or indirectly promote one religion over others (or religious belief over the absence of religious belief). Nothing in Utah’s laws say that any justices or legislators or anybody else has to be a Mormon. In fact, they’re most certainly silent on the question. Thus, you don’t have any violation of the Establishment clause taking place. (As for the prayers at meetings that the court allowed, that’s a different story. There, you’re getting into the complicated and ever-shifting world of Establishment clause jurisprudence.)

As for Free Exercise, it’s pretty obvious that no one’s ability to practice their religion is infringed by the court and legislature being mostly Mormon. While you could make a reasonable argument that the overwhelming presence of Mormons in the government gives that church a lot of influence, that’s a far cry from saying that minority religions are being deprived of their opportunity to worship the way they want to.

The predominance of Mormons in Utah government is simply a reflection of the will of the public, which itself has a strong Mormon composition. Elected officials (and persons appointed by elected officials) are typically going to represent the demographic makeup of the society. Look at it in a broader sense: of the 9 Supreme Court Justices, 535 or so legislators, and the President, there are probably one or two Muslim legislators, and perhaps a Hindu or two. The rest are uniformly Judeo-Christian in their beliefs. (I’m sure there are a few athiests in the bunch, too, but let’s leave them out of this.) To the Muslim or Hindu or Zoroastrain, how is that substantially different from the situation non-LDS folk face in Utah?

4

I express my surprise. I was under the impression that the Mormons no longer practiced polygamy. I used to know some Mormon kids when I was in high school (converted Mormons, not genetic Mormons), and that was the first thing they would tell everybody–“oh, we don’t practice polygamy anymore.”

But I guess that if the entire state of Utah is Mormon, it stands to reason that they wouldn’t be interested in doing something to “protect women and children” who are being “victimized” by this.

Oops, I don’t mean to hijack my own thread–why don’t you go ahead and start a new one for polygamy? Sounds interesting.

5

What if they were all Protestant (as presumably, most, if not all, of the U.S. Supreme Court justices were until the early 1900s?

Look at it this way… you are troubled by the fact that in a state that is mostly Mormon, the state Supreme Court is all Mormon. Should they specifically designate a “non-Mormon” seat? Should they deny a deserving Mormon a spot simply because all the other members are Mormon?

Secondly, by mandating that a person cannot hold a specific office because of his religion (as you would seem to want to do with the last person to make the bench in Utah), ** that ** would be a violation of seperation of church and state.

Zev Steinhardt

6

All of that sounds fine, but like I stated in my first post there are citizens of Utah that are not being given their full protection under the laws of Utah or the United States because the state government and law enforcement is Mormon. Should then the government of the United States intervene?

Needs2know

7

How? You said in your first post:

You did not specify what “this practice” is. Did you mean polygymy? Or was it something else?

Zev Steinhardt

8

By “doing absolutely nothing about it,” I take it that you mean “arresting and prosecuting a polygamist for abuse and statutory rape.” Thanks for your one-sided report.

9

Monty and zev beat me to it.
Ain’t state’s rights a wonderful thing?
What is the particular state action you question, and what federal involvement do you envision?
I figured you were concerned with the poor menfolk - one wife is bad enough!
Had a buddy who lived in Salt Lake City for a couple of years. He was pretty much as non-religious as a person could be. But by the end of the 2 years he would rant about “the fucking Morons.”
You don’t have to live there.

10

It should be noted that “Mormon” is about as useful a term, in this context, as “Christian”.

The position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the guys with the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City) is that polygamy is not commanded, recommended, or permitted. Period. Full stop. Of course, this was the position forced upon them by interventionists, but it’s been church dogma for over a century now.

(Incidentally, we’re strictly talking about polygyny here, but most people would simply find that obfuscating.)

Now, are there polygamists who call themselves Mormons? Absolutely. How many are there? Dunno; a practice that was driven underground over a century ago by civil and religious authority is hard to quantify; it’s rather like smoking marijuana. Is the practice confined to Utah? Definitely not. Is it most common in Utah? Probably. Do some polygamists abuse their wives and children? Yes; so do some monogamists; so do some men who don’t or won’t get married (OK, they don’t have wives, just women who have been living with them for twenty years).

Are there polygamists who don’t call themselves Mormons, and would be insulted if you did? Absolutely. Try alt.polyamory; but remember, USENET posters tend to be nastier than the folks who post to the SMDB.

11

Look, I’m just going by what I saw on last nights program. There are estimated thousands of polygamists in the state of Utah alone. Yet not one has been prosecuted in the hundred years that there have been laws against it. The established community turns a blind eye to it. Of course the program did show a happy little family of polygamists, not just this sick, incestuous clan that was the main focus of the documentary. I personally don’t see anything necessarily wrong with the concept of having multiple wives as long as the individual human rights of the women and children involved are not infringed upon.

I think we also need to realize that not every citizen of Utah is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Days Saints or a splinter sect of that church. What happens to these citizen’s rights when the governing body is predominately a particular sect with a very strong set of dogmatic beliefs? Not to mention that their tax dollars are being misappropriated by criminals who for all intents and purposes are virtually immune from prosecution.

Needs2know

12

Needs2know writes:

Well, that’s your first mistake.

I tell you three times, and what I tell three times is true: nothing on television is to be taken as a reliable source. If you see on the Discovery Channel that the sun rises in the East, stay up late to check.

Over 30,000 estimated, I believe. That’s out of an estimated 2,129,000 Utahans (or whatever), according to The U.S. Census Bureau’s 1999 projection. Doesn’t sound to me like polygamists are about to overrun the state. As for their being in violation of the law – I’ll consent to their being busted if you sign off of the War on (Some) Drugs. Agreed?

Untrue. If you’re deliberately telling a falsehood, shame on you. If you’ve been deceived by A&E, send 'em a nastygram.

It’s true that there hasn’t been a prosecution in about 40 years – about the time that prosecution for consentual sexual acts also ground to a near-halt. I understand that there’s also a law against fornication in Utah – let that charge be added against a polygamist, and we’ll see how long and loud everyone laughs.

Oh, probably nothing good – as every historical example from Merovinginian Frankia to Stalinist China shows. OTOH, the forced relocation of Mormon Utahans to Oregon so that they never make up a majority in any electoral district sounds a bit too much like ethnic cleansing for me to be comfortable with.

Once again, you and others may want to take a look at alt.polyamory.

13

I did check there was a big raid on about 23 polygamists back in 1953 on the Utah/Arizona border. Public outcry at seeing families torn apart pretty much caused the practice to go farther underground and the state and local governments to take a hands off position from then on. Yes there is an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 polygamists in Utah. Of course these figures must be an estimate because of the secrecy involved with these sects. But the burden they place on the state’s welfare system is no secret. And I have a tendency to agree with one of the local prosecutors who says that by simply charging these guys with incest and child abuse they are treating the symptom and not the cause. The cause is the polygamist lifestyle.

You belong to the LDS church don’t you? I don’t have anything against individuals who practice a certain belief. I don’t have anything against the concept of polygamy really. I don’t have anything in particular against the LDS church. My sister is married to a member. (My other sister is becoming more and more fundamentalist Baptist, but I won’t let her talk to me about my bros Mormon beliefs.) I do however have a real problem with child abuse and the enslaving of women. I also have a real big problem with state and local governments that don’t protect these victims. I’ll check out your site and continue with my own research, but I believe this whole Kingston clan should be rounded up and thrown in the pokey. (Most of the women are on welfare anyway so they won’t be losing anything but their oppressor.) The IRS and the state should also go after these crooks and recoup some of their revenue losses.

Needs2know

14

I did check there was a big raid on about 23 polygamists back in 1953 on the Utah/Arizona border. Public outcry at seeing families torn apart pretty much caused the practice to go farther underground and the state and local governments to take a hands off position from then on. Yes there is an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 polygamists in Utah. Of course these figures must be an estimate because of the secrecy involved with these sects. But the burden they place on the state’s welfare system is no secret. And I have a tendency to agree with one of the local prosecutors who says that by simply charging these guys with incest and child abuse they are treating the symptom and not the cause. The cause is the polygamist lifestyle.

You belong to the LDS church don’t you? I don’t have anything against individuals who practice a certain belief. I don’t have anything against the concept of polygamy really. I don’t have anything in particular against the LDS church. My sister is married to a member. (My other sister is becoming more and more fundamentalist Baptist, but I won’t let her talk to me about my bros Mormon beliefs.) I do however have a real problem with child abuse and the enslaving of women. I also have a real big problem with state and local governments that don’t protect these victims. I’ll check out your site and continue with my own research, but I believe this whole Kingston clan should be rounded up and thrown in the pokey. (Most of the women are on welfare anyway so they won’t be losing anything but their oppressor.) The IRS and the state should also go after these crooks and recoup some of their revenue losses.

Needs2know

15

I did check there was a big raid on about 23 polygamists back in 1953 on the Utah/Arizona border. Public outcry at seeing families torn apart pretty much caused the practice to go farther underground and the state and local governments to take a hands off position from then on. Yes there is an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 polygamists in Utah. Of course these figures must be an estimate because of the secrecy involved with these sects. But the burden they place on the state’s welfare system is no secret. And I have a tendency to agree with one of the local prosecutors who says that by simply charging these guys with incest and child abuse they are treating the symptom and not the cause. The cause is the polygamist lifestyle.

You belong to the LDS church don’t you? I don’t have anything against individuals who practice a certain belief. I don’t have anything against the concept of polygamy really. I don’t have anything in particular against the LDS church. My sister is married to a member. (My other sister is becoming more and more fundamentalist Baptist, but I won’t let her talk to me about my bros Mormon beliefs.) I do however have a real problem with child abuse and the enslaving of women. I also have a real big problem with state and local governments that don’t protect these victims. I’ll check out your site and continue with my own research, but I believe this whole Kingston clan should be rounded up and thrown in the pokey. (Most of the women are on welfare anyway so they won’t be losing anything but their oppressor.) The IRS and the state should also go after these crooks and recoup some of their revenue losses.

Needs2know…what the heck is that site…a discussion board for polygamists?

16

I did check there was a big raid on about 23 polygamists back in 1953 on the Utah/Arizona border. Public outcry at seeing families torn apart pretty much caused the practice to go farther underground and the state and local governments to take a hands off position from then on. Yes there is an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 polygamists in Utah. Of course these figures must be an estimate because of the secrecy involved with these sects. But the burden they place on the state’s welfare system is no secret. And I have a tendency to agree with one of the local prosecutors who says that by simply charging these guys with incest and child abuse they are treating the symptom and not the cause. The cause is the polygamist lifestyle.

You belong to the LDS church don’t you? I don’t have anything against individuals who practice a certain belief. I don’t have anything against the concept of polygamy really. I don’t have anything in particular against the LDS church. My sister is married to a member. (My other sister is becoming more and more fundamentalist Baptist, but I won’t let her talk to me about my bros Mormon beliefs.) I do however have a real problem with child abuse and the enslaving of women. I also have a real big problem with state and local governments that don’t protect these victims. I’ll check out your site and continue with my own research, but I believe this whole Kingston clan should be rounded up and thrown in the pokey. (Most of the women are on welfare anyway so they won’t be losing anything but their oppressor.) The IRS and the state should also go after these crooks and recoup some of their revenue losses. Actually according to the Deseret news they are being investigated in connection with violations with several of their disposal companies.

Needs2know…what the heck is that site…a discussion board for polygamists?

17

Nope, I am neither Mormon nor Christian. (I include the latter for the sake of completeness; I am really not interested in participating in the debate over whether LDS are Christians. When you all come to a conclusion, let me know…although I suspect that it will be necessary to find a necromancer in order to do so.) I do react badly, though, to indictments of any group on the basis of one A&E special.

As for the polygamist lifestyle being the cause of incest and child abuse…well, first I need to see some numbers that it’s really more common among polygamists. As I said in an earlier post, these unfortunately seems to be no lack of these vile practices among monogamists and unmarried folk.

As for alt.polyamory, it’s a Usenet newsgroup, not a web site (although I did include a link to access via http://www.deja.com, which is probably the least intrusive way for anyone to do so). I think that the FAQ has just been posted today. Read it – it does a much better job of explaining the NG’s purpose than my poor words could do.

18

No, Needs2Know, the cause is NOT the polygamist lifestyle. There are many polygamous families who don’t commit abuse and incest. The cause isn’t even the Mormon polygamist lifestyle. Altho it can be argued that the patriarchal tenets of LDS beliefs promote wife & child abuse, the same argument can easily be made for ALL of the Judaic-based religions (and some others), whether marriage is monogamous or not.

The PROBLEMS are incest and domestic abuse. The SYMPTOMS are the bruises and scars, mental and physical, which these traumas leave. These situations should be handled as they are in every other family where they occur. If you can find a single root cause for these common problems, you’re doing astoundingly better than the thousands of mental health care professionals, social workers, shelter workers, etc. etc. etc., who deal with these problems every day.

Oh, yeah, I can feel your empathy and understanding from here. With ‘friends’ like you… :rolleyes:

Oh, and before you ask: No, I am not nor will I ever be a Latter Day Saint.

As do I.

Yes.

Duck Duck Goose, do you see a problem with the fact the US legislature, judicial system and executive branch are CHOCK FULL of Christians? What about the rights of all the non-Christians around? Isn’t that a problem by your standards?

To combine the two issues:

Please justify, considering the First and Fourteenth Amendments, the legal ratification of certain religious beliefs that has caused and maintained a system wherein multiple-partner marriages are disallowed. Explain how this legal discrimination does NOT constitute ‘establishment of religion’.

In other words, why can’t Mormons (and anyone else) legally marry as many times as they want? As with most consensual ‘crimes’, this would eliminate most of the fraud and probably much of the domestic abuse that you mention.

(NOTE: I am not talking about fraudulent marriages, wherein a person misrepresents themselves as single to their betrothed. That is fraud and should be prosecuted as such. Nor am I addressing ‘child’ marriage - again, age of consent laws should be enforced appropriately.)

Or should this go to the other thread?

19

No, Needs2Know, the cause is NOT the polygamist lifestyle. There are many polygamous families who don’t commit abuse and incest. The cause isn’t even the Mormon polygamist lifestyle. Altho it can be argued that the patriarchal tenets of LDS beliefs promote wife & child abuse, the same argument can easily be made for ALL of the Judaic-based religions (and some others), whether marriage is monogamous or not.

The PROBLEMS are incest and domestic abuse. The SYMPTOMS are the bruises and scars, mental and physical, which these traumas leave. These situations should be handled as they are in every other family where they occur. If you can find a single root cause for these common problems, you’re doing astoundingly better than the thousands of mental health care professionals, social workers, shelter workers, etc. etc. etc., who deal with these problems every day.

Oh, yeah, I can feel your empathy and understanding from here. With ‘friends’ like you… :rolleyes:

Oh, and before you ask: No, I am not nor will I ever be a Latter Day Saint.

As do I.

Yes.

Duck Duck Goose, do you see a problem with the fact the US legislature, judicial system and executive branch are CHOCK FULL of Christians? What about the rights of all the non-Christians around? Isn’t that a problem by your standards?

To combine the two issues:

Please justify, considering the First and Fourteenth Amendments, the legal ratification of certain religious beliefs that has caused and maintained a system wherein multiple-partner marriages are disallowed. Explain how this legal discrimination does NOT constitute ‘establishment of religion’.

In other words, why can’t Mormons (and anyone else) legally marry as many times as they want? As with most consensual ‘crimes’, this would eliminate most of the fraud and probably much of the domestic abuse that you mention.

(NOTE: I am not talking about fraudulent marriages, wherein a person misrepresents themselves as single to their betrothed. That is fraud and should be prosecuted as such. Nor am I addressing ‘child’ marriage - again, age of consent laws should be enforced appropriately.)

Or should this go to the other thread?

20

genetic Mormons?
You mean are they born that way?:wink:
OI certainly can’t see polygamy becoming widespread or even popular. I sure wouldn’t share my husband with another!
And the old joke about the curse of the man who practices polygamy: many mother in laws…