Does the UN trump the inherent rights of its members?

This is a continuation of a hijack on another thread.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158436

Let’s say the the UN had decided on not allowin the US attack Afghanistan. Would the US and it’s allies have the right to do it anyway?

Since the US stated that invading was paramount to the saftey of it’s citizens, are they required to follow international mandates? Or take the consideration of it’s citizens first, and foremost, and do what it thinks has to be done even without international support?

I think the answer to that question is less important than the answer to this one:

What could the U.N. do if the U.S. chooses to ignore them?

And the answer: pretty much nothing.

And until the U.N. can definitely make fair international laws, I think it should stay this way.

The US should’ve backed out of the UN by now, anyway.

It holds us back by giving little pissants a say, when normally they would have no voice.

The truth is no international organizations, be it NATO or UN or whatever, can do much in backing themselves up, especially pitted against the U.S. The U.S. isn’t going to change their minds on any big issue because the UN wants them to, and therefore the U.S. won’t care for the UN’s opinion unless it is the opinion they want. They’ve shown they don’t care about other countries after flaming France and Germany last week- “They’re on the wrong side”, “They will not win”, “Their opinion isn’t important because we have twelve other countries which are better than them, including Fiji and Lithuania!”

Yes.

Each country is sovereign in its own right and may act as it sees fit to protect its own interests.

I used to have this naive, lofty idea that the reasoning behing the UN was the compromise and harmonization of the interests of its members, and by extension, the whole international community.

Obviously not. Apparently might makes right.

I’m left wondering precisely what the inherent rights of nations are, and from what source, human, natural, or divine they flow ? Perhaps someone could supply a list ?

Yeah! If not for that meddling UN, Kurds, Palestinans, Chechnyans, Tibetans, Kashmirians, and Taiwanese wouldn’t be walking all over poor little America, India, Pakistan, Russia, and China. :rolleyes:

Wel, I guess you can say they are precisely whetever a country says it has the right to do. In this case it would be to defend itself with pro-active measures. And since a soveriegn country is made up of humans, I don’t think nature or God has any direct say in it. Are you trying to be facetious, or are you really implying nations have no rights?

And not just nations, but nation-states.

Apparently, France and the US havve these rights, but Jews and Metis don’t. I guess drawing lines and drafting constitutions is the key to becoming relevant.

Then again, maybe a forum for discussion where action comes from the voices oof the worlds peoples instead of from a govenemnt of one country or another would be usful. Even, if support were given it, viable?

Nah, that would involve putting the needs of the many above the wants of the self. People don’t do that.

Let’s rephrase the question in the thread title:
Do nation-states trump the rights of their citizens?

They do. Some citizens go to jail. Some get special parking spaces at the mall. All are allowed to vote, and the views of all count. But as a citizen, you have to follow the laws of the land, and you have to pay taxes so the government can keep doing its job.

It’s all about coming together for the common good; you don’t get what you want all the time, but that’s the price of living in a society. If you don’t like it, you can try being a self-sufficient hunter-gatherer.
I see the UN the same way. The UN is to the nation-state what a country is to its provinces, its cantons, or its families.

We, the citizens of the UN, just haven’t lent the legitimacy to it that we do to our own governments. And governments still treat the UN as a sort of unimportant facade, when it could be more.

Not facetious at all. If you claim that nations have rights, it’s up to you to say what they are, and from whence they arise. Without a basis like that, there’s nothing to debate except vague feelings.

The big difference here is that the nation-state does not rely on the UN to provide defense and governance. As a sovereign country, it is left to themselves to ultimately take care of their own interests. We do not live in the global village everyone loves to croon about. If I truely believed like you, that somehow the US was a province of the UN, as a citizen I would be up in arms and demand my government pull out immediately. And I am not talking about just writing my senator or congressman. What you suggest would make the Constitution of the US subordinate to the UN. That is unacceptable, to me and most of this country. But, luckily, most people do not see it like you. Including the government.

And what makes the US Constitution so grand that it can’t be subordinated to the UN Charter? Where do the two disagree?

Both are very long documents to read. The preamble to the UN charter says it works, among other things:

because they want:

Skimming through the US Constitution, there doesn’t seem to be much that contradicts those ideals. In fact, this constitution seems to be mostly about who gets what powers and how the government shall be organized.

Are you trying to tell me that the idea of tolerance and peace are fundamentally at odds with the way the US is governed? Or are you just terrifically proud of this document because of the importance it holds in your country?

The US is a nation-state, and it can go ahead and make whatever laws it wants. If it chooses to have a constitution, and to base it’s laws off of that, good.

Just like an individual citizen can run their finances as they see fit, can make rules for their own children, and can be as impolite, as generous, as red-haired or as gay as they want- the government isn’t stopping them.

But the government does have issues with people who commit crimes or deny people fundamental human rights, even if it’s under your own roof.

And the UN condemns and takes action (which are often watered-down by the efforts of opposing nations, see my comment about lending legitimacy above) against states who harbor war criminals, or act as dictatorships and deny human rights to the humans within their borders, or impringe on the rights of other states.

The US constitution is the rules of the house. If the UN had a problem with it, there would be sanctions against the US. There aren’t. The UN seems perfectly happy to let the US constitution be what it is. Now, if the US Constitution was a document declaring the US as having dominion over all the world, and having the right to do whatever it pleases to other nations, then the UN would have a problem with it, and then I could see a supporter of the constitution having issues with the UN.

But until you can tell me why the US constituition can’t live next to the UN charter, I think the analogy of being one province of the world holds.
Unless the reason is simply some kind of pride and nationalistic devotion.

We all have a vested interest in the future of the world- all states and all people. Just like the several states of the US have a vested interest in the security and proserity of the USA.

I suppose those who say might makes right will also accept then that terrorists and others have the right to the use of force as they see fit just like the USA.

The Constitution will never be subordinated to anything, nor will any other charter rank in equal importance, because of course…the Constitution is designed that way. Our officials are sworn to uphold it, our troops are sworn to defend it…because that’s what defines the USA.

I expect no different from any other sovereign nation’s charter.

Before this thread shifts to a pledge of allegiance to the symbols Americans rally around, I’d like to point out that the matter of discussion is whether the UN limits the rights of its member states.

If the US constitution is fundamentally at odds, in letter or spirit, with the UN charter, then the US should not be a member, and should not have helped found the organization. If this is the case, then signing the charter at San Francisco was an affront to American values, and the UN permanent mission in New York is an insult to the government and people of the US.

But from what I can tell, the US constitution is entirely compatible with the aims and ideals of the United Nations, which is why the US acts as host to the permanent mission, and holds a permanent seat on the Security Council.

Any suggestion that, despite agreement with the UN charter, the US constitution cannot be subordinated to it, is just symbolism. It’s flying the most important flag on the right. It’s like a soldier deciding his first duty is to his unit or his commander or his country.

Tell me where the constituion disagrees with the charter. Tell me why the US can’t live as a citizen of the world the way you live as a citizen of the US. That would be an important matter to consider.
Telling me “I placed my hand over my heart in school for it, so never in all eternity shall something become more or equally important” is just throwing your faith in a symbol.

Sure, states have their own documents of various descriptions. But when a country joins the UN, they agree to abide by and uphold the UN Charter. If a country can’t agree with the charter, they shouldn’t join. And I don’t see why the US can’t work within that and still obey it’s constitution.

Ah… but there is a difference between being “entirely compatible and in agreement” and being “subordinate”. NONE of the members of the UN, NONE of them, is subordinate to the UN. Because, when you look at it not one single member of the UN has delegated unto it its attributes of sovereignty (contrast, for instance, the vesting of powers unto the Federal Government in the US constitution; or England and Scotland getting one same royal house and Parliament). *The UN is not a world government. * It has no power of compulsion, if it wants to sanction some misbehaving nation it has to count on asking the other countries to go along with it. The UN would lose members right and left if it ever attempted to become a real “world government”.

The members may all agree to do their best to abide by the Charter, and the UDHR, because they are generally a good idea, but where the rubber meets the road, you get China and Lybia being as much members in good standing as the USA and Costa Rica.

OTOH you don’t just walk out on an organization that seeks a goal you agree with, a goal compatible with your own values, just because there are a lot of “pissants” giving you a hard time – specially if you know that if you leave it will only get deeper into pissantry and get even farther away from achieving those goals.

Good point, JRDelirious. The UN isn’t a world government. And I don’t think I want it to be.

For me, the magic of the UN (besides the ideals it stands for) is in the very structure you describe. If the majority of member states don’t agree, nothing gets done. And a state is not forced, by governmental authority, to comply with the directives of the UN.

A single government can become corrupt or fundamentally wrong or insane. A world government might do that, and so might the government of one state.

But the chances of 150 separate groups all ascribing to the same brand of insanity are slim. So the UN is less likely to make tremendous, grievous mistakes (hopefully) than a single nation, that could fall prey to a coup, a new and and insidious movement like Naziism, or the whims of a dictator.

Precisely because the UN isn’t a government in its own right, no one can abuse its power like that- because it only has as much power as the member states give it. If it screws up, the member states won’t vote for it, or won’t obey.

So it’s up to the good sense and the good will of the nations of the world to make sure it runs right. If states lend their support, their effort, and their legitimacy to it, it can deal with important international affairs. If they don’t, it will at least build wells in African villages.

Well, I said I would weigh in here if Saen presented a lucid OP, so here I am.

To the OP: is this really the question we want to ask? Why should the UN “trump” the rights of nation states? That was not its charter or purpose; it was designed by those selfsame nation states to provide a quasi-governmental framework in which all of the nations in the world could participate. Period. As I stated in the other thread, it is not a “government” in that it has no means of enforcing its will on the collective. However, it has the ability to make policy, and was given a structure that would allow it to provide benefits to its members; being a member is still arguably better than not, even though the organization is weakened considerably when unilateral actions are taken by its constituents.

While the US Constitution and the UN charter may have similarities (we did help draft the charter, after all), no one has stated that the charter suborns the constitutional basis of any of its members; so, there is really no way the UN could “trump” the sovereignty of any of its member states. It was never meant to do so, nor was it given the power to do so.

Now, on to some other comments in the thread: I see a definite tendency by Saen to deny that there is some sort of global community

. Do you really live in a cave? There are many ideas of a global community; though there is no global governance, per se, there is no denying that what one nation does affects the others. If a member of the global community makes a unilateral move that in some way affects its neighbor or another state, it usually indirectly affects others in the community as well; if Brazil were to invade Ecuador out of concern for the defense of its sovereign rights, those two countries would not be the only members of the global community to be affected, right? If a larger member, such as the US, changes the way in which it trades with any other country (through the manipulation of tariffs, for example) it has an effect, to a lesser or greater degree, on the world economy as a whole. The world realized this when the League of Nations was created; its failures and weaknesses were obvious, but the world community could not ignore that some body needed to exist on an international level. The UN was created as a realization that a world body needed to exist, to reduce the amount of unilateral actions that had lead to WWII (and even WWI, as the League of Nations was found to be extremely wanting in this regard).

The fact is (and evidently it is a painful one for some): the world is not as “big” as it once was, and unilateral actions on the part of one nation towards others can create serious repercussions for all. The UN is not designed to interfere in the internal activities of the sovereign nation state: the state’s constitutional and governmental frameworks exist to serve the citizenry of the state, and the UN does not infringe upon that sovereignty, unless asked to do so. The UN is there to provide a framework when one sovereign state deals with another, or when a dispute between nation states arises; in other words, in the international, not the national, arena.

Obviously, Saen sees neither a reason for the existence of the UN, nor for any need for sovereign nations to respect the rights of other sovereign nations; for, at heart, this is what the conversation is about. No one can dispute that sovereignty gives a nation the right to do what it pleases within its own boundaries; somehow, Saen and others have extrapolated the right of the nation state to govern itself within its boundaries as the right to impinge upon other sovereign states. As stated in the previous thread: though you may feel that historically it is still might makes right, there have been two world bodies created (the LoN, and the UN) to dispel that idea, and to allow the smaller and developing nation states to grow and prosper. In 2000 years of history, the world has progressed, one would hope, to a better understanding of the rights of other peoples to enjoy the same freedom of self-determination that made us such a great nation; though the imperial nations colonized and annexed other countries and peoples for their resources, we don’t in this day and age admit that what they did was inherently right. The US was founded on the basic right to self-determination; we fought off the British Empire, and ourselves never actively became a colonial power (remember, we were against the idea, considering we were a colony at one point), though one could argue that some of our actions could be construed by the international community as such. Unfortunately, it seems that even in this day and age there are those that want us to be imperial and colonial, just because we have the might to do so; only now the justification is for defense of our sovereign rights. Sorry to be vulgar, but this is, simply put, bullshit: we, as the world’s champion of freedom, have no inherent right to push our form of governance off on any other nation state. More to the point: our sovereign rights should not “trump” those of any other state, no matter how small or much we disagree with them, unless that state poses a direct threat to our sovereignty. By doing so, we invalidate all that we have striven to give meaning to; we become the “Imperialist”, the “Colonial Power”, whose chains we threw off over 200 years ago. We have the might to do whatever we choose, and damn the consequences; where is it our “sovereign” right to trample the sovereign rights of other nation states? Who are we to determine whether one sovereign country has the right to retain its sovereignty, its identity? If, as others state, the case is that all countries have sovereign rights, where is the case that one country’s sovereignty is more important than that of any other country? Sorry, denying that there is no world community, and that we therefore can act in any way we choose, is an ignorant position; there are reactions for every action, and the effects can and will create changes that affect every single person on the planet. Just like individuals, each state must be responsible for the actions it takes and the decisions it makes, in regards to others in the community. To act unilaterally, without regard for others, is irresponsible; presumably we were all taught that as children. It is no less irresponsible for a nation to behave in the same manner.

Greco

Would it be all right then, hypothetically speaking, that another country invades the US if it decides that is “paramount to the safety of it’s citizens”?