Arguably, the US rising to superpower coincided with WWII and its aftermath. Internally unharmed by the war effort, with a giant military industry rolling, the ascent began. During the almost 60 years that have passed, the USA has been actively in war, armed conflict or at least in an arms race for the vast majority of the time. Maybe ten years in all have been without a real or perceived external enemy (I use that phrase instead of nation, since the ongoing WoT in part does not involve an enemy).
So my question, which is up for debate, is if the US, in its modern incarnation, defines itself in terms of a foe to rally against. It’s a large country, both in terms of geography and population. Large cultural differences exists between regions. Ethnic origins and a continuing influx of immigrants make this sallad bar (not melting pot) of a nation extremely diverse, as opposed to almost any other developed country.
The sadistic drill instructor everyone meets when going to boot camp is sadistic for one primary purpose: Take all these young recruits, with nothing in common, and make them bond by putting up a a real target they can collectively hate.
Is it the same with the US? Is the US defined by having a common goal for its people: the eradication of an enemy that’s threatening “the American Way of Life”. And is the present brouhaha a problem because the administration picked the “wrong” enemy in Iraq (as they did in Vietnam, but not Korea or the USSR), as compared to Afghanistan and the Talibans, which were “good” enemies.
And could this way of thinking also explain the jingoistic, flag waving patriotism that most non Americans (including me) find childish and obnoxious? N.B. this has been up for debate here before and I’m sure you realize I’m using hyperbole. But there is a clear line between how patriotism is displayed in European countries and the US.
Yes, I think we all have a common goal; that of varying degrees of individual freedom and thus economic opportunity/success.
As for Threats to the American Way Of Life and all that, while that plays well with a small crowd of people, that kind of sentiment has nothing really to do with what motivates the vast majority. The repubs have lately been spewing that crap, which just demonstrates they have no more regard for the intelligence of average americans than the democrats do. That kind of rhetoric probably loses far more votes than it gains.
If you mean wrong as in ‘invalid’ or not the real threat, yes. Obviously, if youre going to defend yourself, you want to defend yourself from the people who are a demonstrated real threat.
Well sure, but patriotism in europe often has ethnic-nationalist overtones that it rarely rarely has here. From my months in the big burgs of Vingårker, Lulå, Alvsbyn and Stockholm I found that a Swede waving the Swedish flag has far different implications/connotations than an american waving an american flag. In conversations I had over there, most Swedes just assumed, naturally, that waving a flag here carried the same psuedo ethnic implications, but to the vast majority it doesnt. Patriotism in europe is a different thing than in the US, and a european is naturally going to view US patriotism in the context of europe and vice versa.
But wait, youre from Malmo; not only are you a damn Skånlanding, youre almost a Dane! I always wanted to get to Skåne (they make the best Aquavit), but man you guys have a North/South divide that rivals the US.
That’s not entitrely true, though. The stress imposed by a drill instructor is used to weed out those who can’t take the strain and would more likely be useless in reactual combat. Besides, I didn’t hate my drill instructors. I just thought they were jerks, until later on I learned to respect their abilities. Kinda like my parents.
Anyhoo, the U.S. itself doesn’t need an enemy, but there are a large number of corporations within the U.S. geared to defending against an enemy, so they use their influence to protect their interests. Eisenhower (definitely not a guy with an anti-military stance) gave a warning at the end of his term of office:
He could see the early days of military production starting to influence government decisions, instead of the other way around. America doesn’t need to be perpetually at war with Eurasia or Eastasia, but when war exists, there are a lot of Americans who profit mightily.
As for the salad vs melting pot… a thing that really ideologically unite americans is the belief in getting rich. Capitalism more than democracy is the American creed.
Still governement, pentagon and the CIA love to create bigger than reality enemies that help increase funding… convenient.
But doesn’t the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about require an external threat or two just to keep functioning for its own ends?
I’m, of course, fully aware of the connotations flag waving carry in these parts, and in no way did I mean to imply it was the same in the US. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. But there’s been more than one debate here, where Dopers from almost any other part of the world find the flag waving patriotism of Americans to be almost… embarrassing.
As for capitalism. Sure, getting rich, “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” define America and Americans to a large degree, I think. Even Americans who personally don’t have those goals seem to think that they define America, at least among Americans I’ve met.
But even if it’s patriotic to be a capitalist, the reverse isn’t true. Many people inside and outside the US, Americans and Non-americans, are capitalists and want as many of those dollars as possible. Doesn’t mean they’re patriotic.
And I’m aware that the drill instructor has more functions, having done military service myself (we still have the draft). But it sure is a major factor in military psychology, part of teaching young recruits to learn quickly, follow orders and (maybe) die for their country - which they don’t. You fight to save your buddies lives, in order for them to be alive and help saving your own sorry ass when you’re in a jam.
Please don’t make this into another partisan Iraq quagmire debate. There are enough of those. Maybe I shouldn’t have brought Iraq into this, so my mistake. I’m just interested in the collective identity of Americans and if part of that is rallying around a common enemy.
And in one sentence you manage to sum up your ignorance regarding Americans, democracy and capitalism.
Gaspode, is it your assertion that there are no enemies of America except for those mirages which we create? Such a view seems pretty simplistic and naive.
Well do you want me to go into more details ? Laissez faire is strong with americans as well. Liberty to seek your own prosperity. Americans aren't as ideological in other aspects... except religion of course.
Democracy isn’t as much. Voting numbers are low. Support for democracies abroad is tentative at best. Now when its about protecting commercial interests the US govt. is very effective in maintaining dictators. I wouldn’t say that democracy is the key word… freedom of choice maybe… but not democracy.
As for the enemies... when they are real they are always made bigger. So even when the enemies were not mirages they were certainly blown out of proportion. Cold War estimates of soviet capabilities were always very overblown. Kept those defense dollars and pork barrell churning. Also why the need to make the enmity so vocal ?
No. After the cold war ended most americans were content with not having an enemy (minor enemies like Milosevic don’t really count as ‘enemies’). China and Cuba were not really mortal enemies either. The terrorists attacked us and most people didn’t know anything about Bin Ladin or Al Qaeda before 9/11. Had they not attacked most americans probably would have been content not having a mortal enemy for the next 30 years.
… As most western countries do for their internal private commercial businesses. Is the creation of the EU more of a business venture among European business owners to increase their power and wealth, than any real attempt at a single Europe of body, mind and soul?
Perhaps Americans are lazy at democracy, at their government and with each other because we’ve had it so good for quite a while. Not counting 9/11, we haven’t had an external war on our mainland soil in 200 years, we haven’t had a critical economic upheaval in (now) two generations, we haven’t had a threat to our system of government since its inception, yadda, yadda. We are also blissfully ignorant of much of the world beyond those big ponds on either side of us because we have so much internally (native as well as what is imported).
Yet our very nature, our history is one of exploring and building. We are in the midst of the bicentennial with the Lewis and Clark Expedition, when the bulk of our land was still wild and free. At that same time 200 years ago Europe had long since been domesticated.
However, I will concede that America has changed (IMHO) within the last ten years, and not for the better. Self-centeredness and the almighty dollar are the evil twins taking over this country.
I always wanted to get to Sk&