Does this Qualify as Bigotry?

Great Debates
1

I always hate to see those “I’m not a bigot, BUT…” threads get started. BUT…I’m gonna start one anyway. I would like to preface it by saying it’s not about ME. I heard a conversation the other day in which several people were dicussing race and racism. One girl asked if she was a bigot because she wouldn’t date men of a certain ancestry because she found their physical characteristics undesireable. She claimed not to be a racist, and said she’d likely date a man of any race she found attractive, but then ruled out the possibilty of dating an Asian man(and I believe she meant Japanese and/or Chinese men after hearing other things she said, which I don’t remember enough of to quote correctly) because their skin tones, eye shapes, stature, etc. were not her “personal taste”. She claims no ill feelings toward any group or race (for lack of a better word - I know “race” can’t really be defined). She likened it to not being attracted to with red hair, short guys, or guys with mullets (apologies to anyone who fits in at least two of those categories.

She seemed pretty convincing, and at the time I found myself agreeing that it might be possible to exclude a group of people from your dating pool based on looks, even if it meant excluding an entire continent, and not be a bigot. I mean, she really seemed very UNracist. I didn’t let myself become very deeply involved in the conversation. I thought about it more at home, and got a “What was I thinking?” reaction.

Certainly not a “great” debate, but I didn’t know where else to put it - race questions always seem to get hot anyway.

2

Preview, preview, preview.

Please repair all my typos in your minds.

Thanks.

3

I’m starting to believe its pretty subjective to the person judging on if something like that would be bigotry. From my experience in similar thread I would say that yes, a general consensous would be that it is bigotry. Racism? probably not.
I am not attracted to males, therefore I do not date them. Is that bigotry? On a similar note, I am not attrated to extremely obese women. Is that bigotry. I don’t see it that way, because I don’t judge them in any other fashion than saying I’m not attracted to them. Yet many would say that is bigotry. I think it is a line that will remain fuzzy for some time.

4

I’d say no. Can’t help what you’re attracted to (assuming she’s being completely honest with herself, but that wouldn’t be for us to say).

Pity, though - she has no idea what she’s missing. :wink: (More for me! Woo hoo!)

Esprix

5

No, it doesn’t. Or any refusal to start a relationship with anyone for any physical reason at all is bigotry. Please choose whichever you find easiest to deal with.

6

I would say this person’s attitude qualifies as shallowness, which isn’t exactly admirable, but not bigotry.

7

Yeah, it’s bigotry all right.

But these things are all a matter of degree anyway. It’s acceptable, or innocent, or whatever.

It’s somewhere in there where taste and bigotry blur to gether.

I dated a Jewish girl who said she could never be serious with a Goy.

I was sixteen years old and it ripped my heart out, as I madly in love of that adolescent variety.

8

Neither bigotry nor shallowness. I think it’s exactly like finding any other physical characteristic unattractive, and who says we have to be attracted to everyone?

9

It doesn’t feel like bigotry yet, but it makes me wonder what will happen when, for example, she meets an Asian man who does not fit the physical type that she described. Not every single Asian person in the world looks exactly like “Joe Average Asian” (whatever that is in her mind). Since this is an example on a message board, let’s say that this person meets her other dating qualifications – good sense of humor, likes cats, whatever. Would she consider dating him? You mentioned “stature” as one of the physical characteristics she stated … there are tall, short, fat, thin, muscular and scrawny Asian people. Does her taste exclude all of these? If so, who exactly does she date?

If her list of undesirable characteristics expands to include every Asian person she comes across (“I like tall men. Oh, that tall Asian guy? Well I don’t like tall men with black hair. Oh, that tall Asian guy with brown hair? Um, I only like tall men with blond hair”), the scenario becomes fishier.

I agree that everyone has characteristics that they find attractive in others, and that they are extremely subjective and personal. I wouldn’t want to be called on the carpet to defend my own tastes. At the same time, I would be wary of someone whose stated preferences excluded an entire group of people based on characteristics that not all of said group actually have to begin with. To me, that seems like she started with a dislike (or to be generous, a disinterest) in Asian people, and then filled in reasons to make her opinion seem more palatable (to herself? to others?).

I don’t know, reading your OP again, it sounds like she did leave some room for dating any man she finds attractive, but felt it’s extremely unlikely that she would find an Asian man attractive. Which could certainly be true for anyone. I would have said it was extremely unlikely that I would have ever found a short man attractive, and of course, as things happen, Mr. Del is a short man, and I find him incredibly attractive. Not that I’m in the market for another short man, but I have to say that since meeting Mr. Del, I now turn a much more appreciative eye to all those other short and sexy guys out there. An old dog can still learn new tricks (lucky for me).

Now that I have presented an argument, and then disagreed with myself, I shall now slink out of GD.

10

My whole life long, when the conversational question: “Is there any race or ethnicity you find less attractive than others?” would come up, I had an instant answer: asians. Throughout my life, I consistently found asian men unappealing to my eye and my lust. Big fat zero. Completely unmoved.

Well, you probably know the rest of my tale. My fiance, with whom I’ve been in love for 6 years, is made up of100% Japanese DNA, and looks every bit of it. And I find him meltingly beautiful to look upon, and always have. SInce we’ve been together, I have learned that there are gorgeous Asian men every where I look. They somehow escaped my notice before, but now I immediately zero in on Asians. Fancy that.

stoid

11

Brutal thread. This is as easy as saying its bigotry to be attracted to only one sex, but then again, we do not really decide that. So many things shape our views on what is (or is not) attractive. I do not find blacks attractive whatsoever in their African non-mixed form. Heavily-mixed, they can be pretty hot, both sexes. Lets take the most beautiful woman on earth. . .um, who is she? The most handsome man? Who could say? I would like to slap your friend for thinking Asian men are not attractive, but I think they are, but Asian women are even hotter.
The oddity is that no matter what we think we are attracted to, a person may come along and reshape all realms of atraction we once had. I have had that. I’ll bet most of you have too.

                   Kisses.
12

My dear, I had no idea we had so much in common. I never disliked Asian men, but always dated white guys - and then I fell in love with a Philippino. Ever since then… :wink:

Esprix

13

I vote NO on bigotry.

I’m not realy sure that it involves shallowness, either.

If she is speaking specifically about physical appearance that she does or does not find attractive, she is merely identifying her own preferences. As stoid and Esprix have pointed out, initial attraction is not carved in stone. (My “dream girl” in high school and college was a 5’8"+ brunette or redhead. I actually did not care for blondes. So 17 years ago I married a blonde who only gets to 5’4" by stretching.)

There are still physical “types” who simply do not attract me. I am quite happy to be friends with them, have them as employees or have them as bosses; I simply am not attracted to their appearance.

If the young woman’s remarks were code words for something deeper, then she might be bigoted. However, physical attraction is simply not something that we control very easily.

I don’t see how the simple declaration that any given physical type is not particularly attractive to oneself is ever bigotry. (Obviously, declaring that an entire group is not attractive to anyone is an imposition of feelings that go beyond the personal and that would tend to indicate prejudice, at the least, with an undercurrent of probably bigotry.)

14

Bigotry, no. Rather limiting in her options, yes. Myself, I dont as a rule find blonde or redheaded men attractive. But I will not say it is always like that. Every now and then there is one who catches my eye. And for that matter, sometimes, you can see someone who does not attract you physically at first, but once you spend just a little bit of time with them, WHAMMO. Something about their voice, or that little twinkle in their eye that you missed on first glance, makes the hormones kick in, and you are full tilt in lust. Don’t let that moment pass you by because you dont get that butterfly feeling in your gut the second you see them. In other words, give it a chance before you say, no way. It would be a damn shame to miss out.

15

I posted a similar thread many years ago, and someone summed it up quite succinctly. “You’re talking about aesthetics. If you had said, for example, that you would prefer Ernest Borgnine to Wesley Snipes, that would be bigotry.”

16

There was a local talk show host on Raleigh, NC radio station – generally genial although very conservative – who about a year ago said on the air that he hoped that his son married a white woman, because he wanted grandchildren who “looked like me”. He seemed genuinely surprised that many of his listeners – myself included – thought that this statement was bigoted, and an excessive desire for racial purity. (He didn’t say anything about hair color or height or weight, so apparently any white woman was okay, but no non-whites were).

17

Well, now, wait a minute. Ernest Borgnine in his Oscar-winning film “Marty” kinda had a cute teddy bear thing going. I’ve never found Wesley Snipes all that attractive, never. So I might actually pick Borgnine over Snipes. However, if you meant Ernest Borgnine now (at age 70+?) then I see your point… But even then, what if I have a thing about older guys? (I don’t, but what if I did?) People’s tastes can get pretty incomprehensible. Everyone’s aesthetics differ. You just never know what’ll turn them on!

I vote for no bigotry. You can’t control who you find dreamy. Sure, sometimes someone will throw you for a loop, (like what has happened to Stoid, and others) but I think it’s fair to say that “generally” a certain race or characteristic doesn’t turn you on. And you should be able to feel this way without being labeled a racist.

I remember on another board, I was reamed out by some knee-jerk types because I mentioned that a friend of mine (white male) wouldn’t date black women. He did say that under certain obscure circumstances, he could see it happening, but as a general rule, he wasn’t interested in dating black women. Period. On this other message board, the knee-jerk types were frothing at the mouth and chanting “Your friend is a RACIST!!!” To which I replied, “Bullshit!” Is he denying them a job? Is he going up to them in the street and making racial slurs? Is he treating them like they are sub-human? Is he denying them housing? No, he just has eleminated them from his personal dating pool. Well, boo hoo hoo. My friend is a great guy overall and has some good qualities, but I guarantee you that black women everywhere don’t have to feel like they’ve missed out on the greatest guy on earth. People are entitled to their personal tastes, dammit. Hell, I’m a fat chick, and I don’t think that every man MUST find fat chicks attractive. Some do, some don’t. All I care about is that people don’t treat fat chicks (or anyone else) like shit. But do I feel like every man must include fat chicks in his personal dating pool, or be labeled a bigot? Hell no.

18

whitetho: There was a local talk show host on Raleigh, NC radio station – generally genial although very conservative – who about a year ago said on the air that he hoped that his son married a white woman, because he wanted grandchildren who “looked like me”. He seemed genuinely surprised that many of his listeners – myself included – thought that this statement was bigoted, and an excessive desire for racial purity. (He didn’t say anything about hair color or height or weight, so apparently any white woman was okay, but no non-whites were).

Yeah, it’s that sort of “over-weighting” for the “racial” elements of appearance that bothers me. I mean, come on, the chances are very good that no matter what race his daughter-in-law is, his grandchildren are going to look somewhat like him, and they’re not going to look exactly like him even if she’s the most lily-white woman you ever saw. If his grandson has grandpa’s ears, his hands, his voice, his ability at sports or music or any of the other zillion-and-one things that have a hereditary component, why would grandpa still be dissatisfied that he and Junior don’t match in skin color? Answer: simply because our race-conscious society overemphasizes skin color and other “racial” traits when deciding who looks like whom and what sort of physical characteristics “belong” in the same family.

19

The answer depends upon how you define “bigotry.”

Perhaps another way to ask the question is to ask whether it’s “ok” (whatever that means) to be racist in your dating preferences.

This question brings into conflict two moral principles in the modern world.

The first is the principle of individual autonomy - you should be free to do as you please as long as you don’t trample on the rights of others.

The second is the principle of equality - that you should treat others equaly, regardless of their race, creed, or whatever.

It’s really a question of how much weight you give to either of these principles.

It’s interesting to note that if you look at the actions of most Americans, it is clear which principle they give the greater weight in making decisions.

If someone challenges your dating preferences, you might ask yourself what sort of neighborhood that person would buy a house in; and where they would send their children to school.

20

I don’t see that she was challenging anyone’s dating practices. She wasn’t saying “Oh don’tyou go date an Asian.” she was saying “I don’t find the asian stereotype attractive”

What if it was turned around? Is it still bigotry if you like redheads? Personally, I like tall guys. It would have to be one really hot wonderful man under 5’10" to catch my eye seriously. (I can look at hot short guys and appreciate but I’m six feet tall barefoot) Only in the area of serious relationships do I have this preference. I’ll hang out with short guys, work with short guys, laugh at their jokes, whatever, I just don’t like bending down to kiss them. Its a preference.

If you want to get all bent out of shape about sexual bigotry, I hope you are bisexual and in a lather about every individual you meet. Otherwise you are discriminating on some level against some group.