Does three DWI's make one an alcoholic?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have a co-worker who has a son who has received three convictions for DWI (driving while intoxicated–some states call it DUI)–at least two of them were while I’ve been at this company, so within the past three years. As part of his punishment, this young man (who is only one year younger than me) has to go to some sort of treatment class. Apparently, a family member needs to attend certain sessions of this treatment class along with the person being treated.

I have heard no end of the handwringing from this man’s mother that they automatically assume her child is an alcoholic just because “he’s young, he made some stupid decisions, and he goes out to play cards with his buddies and has a bit too much to drink and then drives home.” She claims that he doesn’t drink at any other time, that it doesn’t affect his work, etc., etc. so that means he’s not an alcoholic.

I listen to all this, and I try to nod sympathetically, etc., without saying much, but it’s getting harder to do. After all, if I got hit and killed by a drunk driver, it wouldn’t matter to me whether he was an “alcoholic” or not. It’s obvious to me he has some sort of problem, whether or not it is technically alcoholism, since he apparently did not learn his lesson the first two times. Apparently, the state of Minnesota feels the same way.

My co-worker has gone to one of these sessions with her son, and she told me how awkward it was because, while other people there had “real problems” to talk about with their family member, she really didn’t have anything to say. Her son was encouraged to come up with a secret regarding his substance abuse, and the only thing he could come up with is that he smoked pot in high school. My co-worker says he’s told her everything else–that he only time he drinks is when he goes out with these friends to play cards.

My (unspoken, because I have to work with this woman pretty closely) thought is that he should just give up drinking anyway, whether he is technically an alcoholic or not, because it obviously severely affects his judgment. After all, he could call a cab, but he doesn’t. He could have a designated driver, but he doesn’t. He could stop drinking after one or two, but he doesn’t. His judgment is the problem here (and his mother has even admitted that much–but it’s “not alcoholism”.)

I guess I’m wondering if that sort of problem is technically alcoholism or not, and what people here think. I’m not going to argue with my co-worker about it–after all, they are complying with the state’s request, whether they agree with it or not. I’d just like my own ignorance fought. Does alcoholism include judgment lapses like this? Do these treatment classes do anything for that? Are you only an alcoholic if you start missing work, etc.? Can this still just be considered youthful indiscretion after three chances? (and is it “youthful indiscretion” when you are over 30 years old?) And how is it, as my co-worker claims, that all these people go out drinking at bars every week and drive home and don’t get caught? Is her son just unlucky? I assumed that most people who go out drinking these days either stop after one or two or call a cab, etc. She claims that’s not the case, but then again, I hardly drink at all or go out drinking, so I don’t know.

2

What seems like a bad sign to me is that he didn’t change his behaviour after the first or even second time. Getting caught once doesn’t make you an alcoholic. If the same thing gets you into trouble again and again, then either you are a moron or you have some unresolved issues.

3

There are many definitions of alcoholism, but the one I tend to lean towards is “dependent on alcohol” (another term that’s probably too vague, but I have very little experience on the subject). IMHO, the person you describe is not an alcoholic, but he clearly does have a problem controlling his behaviour so that he can avoid being in this situation. If these classes help with that, great. I don’t like the way the mother appears to be making lame excuses for the behaviour; it sounds like she could be passively “encouraging” him by doing this.

I think it’s a bit extreme to say this person should give up drinking altogether; they just need to make sure that when they are in a drinking situation, they do not drive. Nearly everyone is easily capable of that - unless he is genuinely an alcoholic. As you say, this is the natural reaction of the other members of this support group, but for me it doesn’t seem to fit the known facts.

4

Of course not. The lad in question is just making (severe) errors of judgement that don’t have much if anything to do with alcoholism. I mean if you want to define alcoholic to include behaviour such as this the terminology becomes so broad as to be almost meaningless.

For whatever reason, the US is a generation behind some other places in its attitude to drinking and driving. My Dad’s generation (in the UK) would drink and drive like this, but mine does not. There now exists such peer and societal pressure here that even assholes like the subject described in the OP are dissuaded from doing it.

Conversely, when I visit the US I’m amazed how otherwise responsible, professional people, are happy to tan the bevvy and jump in their cars. They’re not alcoholics either, there just isn’t the social structure in place yet that proscribes this behaviour.

5

He’s definitely having trouble believing the law applies to him. I don’t care if anyone drinks themselves into the gutter (I’ve done it myself more than I should have) but there are very good reasons for not driving after drinking.

You think he’ll stop after he wrecks his car or kills someone?

6

Certainly makes him an irresponsible dumbfuck - if that makes his mom feel any better than having him labelled an alky.

7

I have a really hard time imagining that he would come out with the “secret” with his MOM sitting right there. That’s an odd rule, about a family member having to attend with the person.

I don’t think a verdict of ‘yes/no’ on being an alcoholic can be made purely on what your coworker has told to you. IMO, in a case like this, that’s something which the person in question should decide. I agree that he’s a moron to keep drunk driving, though. Most people figure that out before they hit 30.

8

Another vote that not necessarily alcoholic, just absolutely irresponsible and stupid. And with alcohol involved, all to possible that it will be terminally irresponsible and stupid.

You might recommend to her that a breathalyzer interlock would be a good investment.

9

Well, if someone continues to repeat the same behavior despite negative consequences, that certainly implies a problem. Who cares what label you put on that problem? “Alcoholic,” “alcohol abuser,” “problem drinker,” “youthful indiscretion,” etc… His strenuous objections to being labeled an “alcoholic” are merely clever diversions to get the topic of conversation off of his problem and on to a semantic quibble. That way he doesn’t ever have to talk about his problem.

Of course, it doesn’t sound like he’s really had many consequences yet. Sending him to alcohol classes for his third DWI? That’s bullshit. You send someone to classes after their FIRST DWI, not their third. Then you send them to jail after their second, and prison after their third. That’s the law in Indiana. First offense, probation. Second offense, minimum 5 days in jail, and third offense is minimum 6 months in prison. (That’s slightly simplified, but it’s the general idea.)

Also, ignition interlock devices are a joke. There are so many ways around them.

10

There are problems involved in treatment for “alcoholism” that isn’t voluntary. The main one is that it is likely to be the easiest approach: it’s easier to treat someone for alcoholism than it is to treat them for irresponsible fuckwittery.

It’s actually no business of the state whether he is or isn’t an “alcoholic” by any one of the 10,000,000 or so definitions of the term flying around out there. But it certainly is the business of the state if he drinks and drives.

My own view would be that he isn’t responsible enough to be trusted with a car, and so his licence should be withdrawn for an extended period - several years, given that this is his third offence. Any other fines/jail/probation should be imposed as per local law. The business of whether or not he has a serious drinking problem really needs to be left to him to decide.

11

A friend of mine, over the course of the past decade…

had a DUI & was on parole with an ignition interlock device (which she didn’t figure out a way around, though I don’t think she tried);

would be fine for a while either abstaining or moderately drinking, then go on binges which would result in stomach problems, causing her to miss half-weeks of work while her stomach readjusted;

had that happen enough times that her employer finally dismissed her for absenteeism;

has been hospitalized at least a half-dozen times for alcohol poisoning;

is now seeing a couselor who assessed her at being at Stage 3 of some “Four Stages of Alcoholism” (the last stage being “Full Alcoholism”) and who has given her permission to have 2-3 drinks a day.

Gee, I think this counselor could do better if he used Larry Miller’s “Five Stages of Drunkenness” as his guide.

12

That sounds about right to me. I drink far, far too much and I’m sure many people would label me an alcoholic but I go out twice a week with different groups of friends and, because I am driving , drink 2 beers over several hours.

Drinking too much in your own time and committing crimes while intoxicated are totally different matters.

13

From a post in a thread about someone’s girlfriend getting a DUI (from someone much more knowledgeable than I on the subject).

Also note I have no clue what distinctions may exist between DUIs and DWIs in terms of legalities or penalties.

14

Believe me. If he’s been caught three times, there’s likely three hundred more times when he drove drunk and didn’t get caught. He may not be an alcoholic, but he certainly lacks responsibility and awareness.

15

Well what could constitute an alcoholic then?
Hypothetical:
Let’s see, I got three DWI’s
I still drive while intoxicated
I still drink irresponsibly
However, I go to work on time, pay my bills and do not generally hurt anyone. Except maybe if I accidentally veer into the left lane whilst drunk and kill the mom taking her kids to a sleep-over.

Labels do not need to be given to this young man. He need to be in control of his actions. If alcohol makes him not in control, and he refuses to give it up, or cannot give it up, then I would say he has a problem.

To me, the worse kind of alcoholic is the functional alcoholic. They go to work, have a wife and kids, pay their bills, drive nice cars…but are not in control of their lives due to alcohol abuse. Being an alcoholic does not mean you are sitting under a bridge with a 40 in a paper bag. The person in the cube next to you who is clean cut, pays her bills, and is generally quiet could easily be an alcoholic.

Generally, if you are not incontrol of your life due to drinking, you may have a problem.

16

Your DUI/DWI penalties seem lighter than the states I’m familiar with.

Here in Montana, he would have lost his license for 6 months on the first offense, along with a potential for $1,000 fine and/or jail time in some cases. On the second offense, it’s a one-year license suspension, and he could face confiscation of the car (or an ignition interlock if they let him keep it), longer jail time, and stiffer fines. It would take a special kind of idiot to risk a 3rd offense, especially within a few years. The fourth offense is a felony, and he’d be likely to lose his license permanently.

Alcoholic? I don’t know. There has to be some reason that he’s willing to risk a 3rd offense. It wouldn’t be worth it for most people.

Again, I’m just quoting my state’s law because I’m too lazy to look up the other 49. The penalty here for bypassing an ignition interlock device is up to $500 fine and 6 months in jail.

To the best of my knowledge (IANAL), DUI (driving under the influence) and DWI (driving while intoxicated) are exactly the same thing. Different states use different terms.

17

My only brush with alcoholism is stories about my FIL, but he fell into this category. He was a very well-liked doctor, got into med school without a bachelor’s degree and earned top marks. On the outside, he probably seemed to have all his shit together. I’ve seen what his behaviour did to his family though, and it is far from pretty. In the end, he wound up losing his wife, career, and his relationship with one if not two of his children as a result of his actions.

So I’m going to side on the side of, it doesn’t matter what you want to call this kid, he has a problem that involves alcohol, and if he needs to stop drinking to fix the problem, then he has to be willing to take that step. The potential consequences if he keeps up this behaviour are far worse than the harshest DWI penalty.

18

Here it’s a $5000 fine and up to a year in jail. Of course, that only applies if they are court ordered to have the device. If they get it voluntarily, as was suggested upthread, there is really no way to hold them accountable, and I suspect that is the same in your state.

Plus, there are ways to circumvent the device without bypassing or tampering with it, thereby protecting yourself from actually violating the statutes. Never underestimate the resourcefulness of an alcoholic trying to get a fix.

(I’m hesitant to post the methods I’ve seen people use to circumvent them, both on GP and also to avoid violating board rules.)

19

Minnesota is not known for being slack on DWI penalties. A summary of the penalties are here: MINNESOTA DWI PENALTIES/LAWS - MN CRIMINAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE PENALTIES

IMHO any sane person facing the penalties that he is facing with a potential 4th DWI would give up drinking.

20

Yes, or give up drinking and driving at least. Still, “sane” doesn’t strike me as the best description of the gentleman described in the OP, alcoholic or not.