Being a white-skinned person and being proud of who you are is fine. Nobody should be ashamed of their skin color. Being proud because you believe your skin color makes you superior is where the line is.
And yes, I have no idea what “white culture” is supposed to be aside from a “rejection of everything that’s not about white-skinned people” which is, again, racist and white supremacist.
I’m a white guy. I don’t feel like I have a culture because of that. I have a culture because of where I grew up, and who my family is, and things I’m interested in. But my skin color doesn’t have anything to do with culture.
Is it possible that there are enclaves in parts of the world where people of white skin, who are a minority there, happen to congregate and form their own culture? I will allow that to be possible. But I don’t think that’s at all what this is talking about.
Does it make any difference if you call it European culture (as many do)?
I wish we English speakers could find another way to express solidarity with our background culture without saying we are “proud” of it. Being from a culture is no particular achievement, after all. What we seem to mean really is that, especially where our background culture is oppressed or criticized or ignored, we want to emphasize its value among the cultures of the world. Calling it pride is a convenient shorthand, but its inaccuracy leads to communication difficulties in more nuanced contexts.
Europe doesn’t have a culture either. You can’t say that, for example, Norway and Italy are the same culture. Maybe after a century of the EU, with multiple generations, you might get something like that. But today?
And for the White supremacists in question: did anyone else actually look at the map on the linked site? It certainly excluded large parts of Europe from their idea of White.
My take: “white” culture or “European” culture is the culture of most everyone in America, regardless of “race”. Beethoven? Shakespeare? Isaac Newton? Galileo? That all belongs to everyone, regardless of genetic heritage, because we’re swimming in that ocean together. If “white” culture can lay claim to things from Ireland to Italy to Russia, then there’s clearly nothing explicit about one’s heritage that allows one to lay claim to it.
As @Atamasama says “I have a culture because of where I grew up, and who my family is, and things I’m interested in. But my skin color doesn’t have anything to do with culture.”
There are many different cultures that are expressed in America, and I understand wanting to find a partner among people with whom you share a similar culture. There is no “white” culture. Black folks and Asian folks in America have just as much claim to apple pie as Italians or Germans or Poles or Scots.
I’m sure this will be incoherent and poorly thought out. If too far down that path, then feel free to drag me on it in the What were you THINKING? thread.
I know people aren’t doing this on purpose, but I think that those claiming there is no white culture are unintentionally othering non-white groups. The way I hear it is: unique aspects of non-white groups are those groups culture, but whites can’t claim a culture because what would be white culture is common to all of the non-white groups.
Does that make any sense? Another way of saying it is that the “base” culture is white, and other groups add their own bits of culture on top of it, leaving the impression that white is the default state of being. That’s how I hear it, anyway.
There is white culture, but I don’t think I can give specific examples of things that are exclusively white. Because white people have been dominant for so long (colonialism and all that), many aspects of white culture have been imposed on other groups. There is also all kind of trading and stealing from one culture to another, so any specific example is just going to be picked apart as having roots in something else.
And then you can zoom in and out. Is something white culture, or American, Canadian, Protestant, Gen-Z, Utah, Berlin culture etc? All of those?
I’m not going to argue with your main contention, there is a germ of an idea there but it needs refinement, and at this moment I can’t be arsed. But really, how often do you hear references to Asian culture or African culture. Almost always it’s by country, or region of a country, or specific ethnicity (not just one of the three “races”).
That’s exactly why I allowed for the possibility of “white culture” being a thing where whites are a minority.
To flip it around, there is certainly a Black culture in the United States, but I would wager that there wouldn’t be in most of Africa.
That does raise the question about whether or not there can be such a thing as “African Culture”, when Africa is so much larger than Europe. And I will admit that I can’t answer that in my ignorance.
I think it’s all moot for this particular subject though, when it looks like these particular people claiming white culture from this data dump just happen to also be spouting white supremacist opinions.
There are stereotypes of “American culture” that are partly true but mostly exaggerated and far from universal. In reality there’s a pretty wide diversity of American cultures, mostly defined by geographic regions, and by urban vs rural disparities which are probably even more significant than geographic ones..
(The Fawlty Towers episode “Waldorf Salad” comically illustrates a British view of the American stereotype – rich, loud, and demanding )
Yes… kind of… but maybe with a few additional important pieces of context and some challenges (all of the below is offered sincerely, without snark).
We (or at least I) are talking about some flavor of American culture. Do folks in Flanders, or Sicily, or Scotland articulate the same concept of “white culture”? I don’t think so.
The “base” culture is not white… it’s a melting pot of mostly but not exclusively European traditions. Why call it “white”? Black Americans have been in America for 400 years. What are the pieces of “white” culture that they cannot also claim? Have they not contributed to “white” culture? What about Jews or other more recent immigrant populations? Are their contributions part of white culture? Do they get to claim historic white cultural things? Can you untangle their contributions in order to state clearly what is “white” and what is “non-white” culture?
Maybe think of it this way, you said “There is white culture, but I don’t think I can give specific examples of things that are exclusively white.” I’d challenge you to then maybe consider that there is no white culture. If you might want to claim Notre Dame and the Colosseum as your cultural ancestry, consider that your claim to them has nothing to do with whiteness, or even what country your parents’ parents’ parents’ were born in, but because you yourself were raised by people who count those things as part of their culture.
In a world where people from different cultures move and travel freely, those who end up somewhere new typically adopt the culture of their new home. And if they do not, certainly within 1-2 generations they do.
One might ask, “well, why do black people “get” to have black culture?” I would think it goes without saying, but because they were explicitly othered and left out of American society (to put it incredibly tamely) for hundreds of years, and in many ways continue to be today.
tl;dr - consider that the cultural inheritance you describe has little to do with skin color, and that folks of all skin colors have equal stake in American culture.
I’m not sure I am arguing there is but I’d have a hard time arguing against it, for example arguing against statements like “American culture is shaped by the diversity of groups within it and their interactions.” or even complaints about the impact of “American culture” in other cultures across the world.
Whoa! So are you saying @Reply should “watch his mouth???” I didn’t read his comment as justifying bigotry, but as saying that free people have the right to associate with those we wish to, no matter how distasteful that may appear to others. If someone wants to declare publicly that they only wish to “date” Jews or left-handers or cross-dressers or Mongolians, then what’s it to you? Save the outrage for when they cross the line into criminal territory. And no I’m not giving a free pass to pedophiles.
That’s the thing - in the US, we have this very particular circumstance where a huge group of people were kidnapped from their native cultures, brought half-way around the world, had all connections to their original cultures systematically erased, and then spent centuries being told that they were inherently worthless because of their skin color. The concept of Black Pride grew out of that very specific context, but now people want to treat that like the default, and every racial group should have its own Pride movement. But other racial groups don’t have that history of not knowing where their ancestors came from. I don’t need “White” pride, because I know my roots are in Scotland and Ireland, and I don’t need White “pride” because I didn’t grow up in a society that was built around the idea that I’m inherently worthless because I’m white.
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