Is white culture unassailable?

I have an Indian friend with whom I’ve been discussing how he feels about depictions of Indians in works by non Indians (Life of Pi, Slumdog Millionaire, Sita Sings the Blues, etc).

I’ve been trying to create an analogous context for myself for perspective. As a gay person I can manage it, though sexual identity is not an ideal analogue for culture or ethnicity, and I’m having trouble doing that as a white person.

The closest I can come to is a scene in the book and film Enemy Mine. An Earth pilot has crash landed on the same planet as an enemy alien pilot and they must learn to put aside their differences to survive. The Earthman inadvertently insults the alien’s religion, the alien gets angry and tries to tit-for-tat by insulting Mickey Mouse. Earthman has to try his hardest to pretend to be likewise insulted and not crack up laughing.

I wonder if there is a similar situation with white culture. Am I unoffendable as a white person? If so, is this because white people have no universal detractions (but whitey can’t jump and ain’t got no rhythm), because they just aren’t overly sensitive, or in fact they just don’t actually have a culture to detract?

Does white culture even exist? I don’t consider mere “anti non white” identities to be sufficiently applicable.

Subsets of white culture sort of exist - American, English, Scottish, certain other Europeans and Russians and in between. And for some reason the historical lording over of power of white people over others has tied whiteness to the idea of authority and governing (the Man!).

But it seems like a conglomerate white culture does not exist except as the negative space around all other cultures. It has become like the background, and I suppose you can only assail the subject in the foreground.

There are white nationalists who get really protective of white identity in various ways. You’re not one, neither am I, but one may wander into this thread.

There are various nationalists, chauvinists, and the like, who get really protective of The American Way, Christendom, Capitalism, the English language, or what have you. That may be more relevant to what you’re talking about with portrayal of Indians. “Indians” is not exactly the same as “browns,” is it?

Of course you are “offendable”. A classic example would be claiming that white people are all evil.

True, although there was an amusing scene in this week’s Big Bang Theory in which Sheldon tries to explain that Rajesh calling a black woman “brown sugar” can’t be racist because he is Indian/brown too.

While it’s true there is no such thing as a white culture, there is also no such thing as an Indian culture or a Chinese culture. There may be cultural factors that are widespread in any of those groups, but nothing that is even near universal. Not religion, not language, not economy.

Anyway, in my opinion:

The reason why “white” culture, by which I gather you mean western culture, is “unassailable” is because it settled into a period of self-criticism in the reformation/enlightenment, and it has kept going unabated ever since.

Of course this self-criticism has gone hand in hand with individualism. For 400 years western intellectuals and artists have made a name for themselves by pushing teh boundaries of bad taste and finding sacred cows to slaughter. And as the wanna-bes and trendies follow them, they also adopt an anti-establishment and mindset and expression.

At this stage anything that anybody could possibly insult about my culture has already been insulted. We’ve gone about as far as we can go. I can see sculptures of Jesus in jars of urine in the local museum. I can find images of Mickey Mouse sodomising a goat in seconds on Google.

Basically, western society has passed through the fire and been baked hard. We’ve been forced by our own membership to defend our own sacred beliefs, and anything that wasn’t rationally defensible has largely been swept away. Everything that is left that we value can be defended rationally, and we know this because we can be damn sure that it has been attacked and criticised repeatedly over the last few centuries.

So sure, we hold some things to be important, such as democracy or individual liberty. But outsiders can’t offend us by attacking those things, because we have *already *attacked them ourselves, form the inside. I won’t feel any more offended if an Indian attacks the lack of family values in my society than I felt when I read some white woman attacking in the newspaper last week. And i will defend my society against those cristicisms from an Indian the same way I will defend it against an attack from a white woman.

So yea, you are largely unoffendable as a white person, because anything that you hold sacred you had seen belittled and criticised and in most cases defiled by the time you were twelve. And you were taught that you had to accept that as the price of living in a free society. You were taught tolerance.

Non-western societies haven;t had that experience. They haven’t been subject to self-criticism, and the criticism handed out by imperialists was never actually open to challenge, so the societies never had a chance to test their beliefs and reject the weak ones.

And as a result, a lot of people have never learned that you need to accept criticism, that you need to be able to defend against criticism with argument. Or that you should reject beliefs that are indefensible, or indeed that rejecting beliefs is even an option.

You aren’t unoffendable because your culture has no “detractions”. You are unoffendable because you have been forced to confront all those flaws before.

Your country has a hideously high murder rate. The very existence of your country is based on land theft and genocide. You live in an incredibly wealthy society that has an entrenched, impoverished underclass, and nobody gives a shit about them. Societal cohesion has all but ceased to exist.

Those are all massive flaws in your culture. But they aren’t news to you. You have heard it all a thousand times before. You can’t be offended by somebody saying that because you have been desensitized.

And no, western culture certainly does exist in a positive and definable way. It’s not just an absence of anything else. It is democracy and capitalism and individual freedom and power with control from the people and social security and a whole heap of other things. A lot of “non-western” societies have also adopted those thing of course That is largely what “Westernised” means. That trend towards ever increasing freedom and government by the people and checks on the power of the ruling class is very much a western cultural phenomenon. Western culture may seem like a background to you, but go live somewhere where it doesn’t exist, even somewhere as westernised as India, and you will realise just how real it is.

And of course other cultures do try to criticise western culture. A lot of the Indians i work with seem vaguely appalled about the lack of family values in the west. And they have a point. But i can’t be offended because i have heard it before, and I can defend it as a price paid for individual freedom. The Soviet Union frequently criticised the inhumanity and decadence of capitalism. And again, they were right. And again, we had heard it all before and were able to defend it.

So it’s not like Western culture cant be attacked. It’s just that it’s hard to offend a westerner because we’ve had to defend our beliefs every day of our lives, so we don’t find a challenge to our beliefs to be particularly offensive.

At least to an extent, it is this. Western culture isn’t perfect, but we’re a lot futher from the insanity of thar culture than our predecessors or contempories. I don’t think we’d see an orgy of senseless violence just because some girl was framed for burning the Bible or an American flag, for instance.

For a large subset of people in the U.S., white culture seems heavily defined by religious beliefs, and we have fairly recent examples of mass demonstrations and affronts taken among the population by perceived insults to that. The mass burning of Beatles albums after Lennon’s quip about being bigger than Jesus, for example. Or the theater protests that happened across the nation regarding The Last Temptation of Christ. Both events were largely the work of WASPs and can be contextualized as examples of large groups of white people being motivated by cultural offense.

That’s less because of any enlightenment on our part than it is an unwillingness of the government to let people get away with it. It didn’t stop blacks from being lynched back when the government was willing to look the other way, and it doesn’t keep homosexuals from being assaulted or killed whenever some band of Christian thugs thinks they can get away with it. Nor has it stopped American Christians from pushing for laws in Uganda executing homosexuals.

Remove the restraints of the government and much of America would soon look like a Christian version of Taliban-dominated Afghanistan.

It’s easy to set an American off. People are used to having their religion or their political leaders criticized. But for just one example, try questioning whether the military is made of “heroes” if you want to get a similar reaction to asking an Indian why they put up with all this Vishnu nonsense.

Counterpoint:
And I’m a man. How many advantages can one person get ?! I’m a white man. You can’t even hurt my *feelings *! What can you really call a white man that really digs into… “Hey, cracker !” "Ugh, ruined mah day. Boy, he shouldn’t have called me a cracker, it’s bringing me back to… owning land and people, what a drag. – Louis C.K.

Great answers everyone, but particularly Blake, thanks.

And demonizing men is also bad.

Of course!

Sure, white people can be offended. I’ll never forget being on an overnight bus in China and seeing a public service ad for HIV prevention. Basically two guys went whoring around, got HIV from a prostitute, and infected their wives. Everyone in the (cartoon) add was clearly Asian, except for the prostitute, who was blonde and caucasian. The Chinese characters were portrayed as morally upright innocent victims, and the blonde hooker as a temptress that seduced the men into sleeping with her. As far as I know, blonde caucasians do not make even a minuscule share of the market for prostitutes in China! As a blonde caucasian alone on the bus, most certainly not trying to spread disease to the innocent Chinese population with my wonton sexuality, the whole thing made me very uncomfortable.

Around the world, white Westerners are often known for being somewhat crass and unrefined, sexually immoral, violent, power-hungry, preternaturally good at business despite not being particularly smart, and somewhat lost in our own little world as we are insulated from reality. It always made me laugh in China, because we basically got the same stereotypes black people get in the US- we were considered sexual superstars, great dancers and athletes, intellectually slow, and prone to senseless violence.

In response to the OP, I don’t think there is a universal “white” culture. As far as I know, those white dudes in Khazakstan don’t have much in common with, say, Australians. There definitely is a western culture, but it’s not at all exclusively white. What would US culture be without African-Americans? What would Britain be without it’s interactions with the subcontinent? Western culture is geographic, not racial. That said, in the US there definitely is a distinct white culture. White people tend not to see it, because we assume it is the “default” that universally applies to everyone. Hence all those threads about “Why can’t black people just name their kids normal names like Jennifer and Kyle?” But that doesn’t mean that white culture actually is the default.

Sorry. Next time I’m in China I’ll try to stop acting so stereotypical. You know, for the cause. :wink:

You just have to pick and choose the nasty bits.

Trailer-park, inbred, meth addled honey boo-boos.

Obese, wash yourself with a rag-on-a-stick, hoarding, living in your own feces, stenchpile.

Loner, loser, living in your mom’s basement, acne riddled child pornographer.

Cuccolded, emotionless cry of quiet desperation with a tiny pecker and physically frail.

Those are all very white stereotypes.

But but but…what would white women know about wontons? :confused: :smiley:

I think you missed the point of the skit. The idea is that there is simply no disparaging epithet for whites.
I mean, sure, you can call someone white trash, hillbilly, redneck or nazi ; or you can call them guido, mick or polack ; or even go for fatty, ginger, four-eyes… but those are all specific subsets that may or may not apply to a given white person. There is simply no snappy word in the English language (or Spanish, French, German…) to convey the meaning “you are a white person, this is bad and you should feel bad” - even “cracker” or “whitey” are toothless, because they don’t reflect particularly negative stereotypes.

The words may exist in other cultures (farang, gaijin and gweilo come to mind), but we, or “white culture” if you will, don’t have any.

Dude. TMI.

Such a nice self congratulatory paean. Also a bunch of crock. All cultures have elements that criticise them constantly. What makes criticism offensive is that someone from a different culture is doing it. ‘White’ culture, and American culture in particular, get around this by being a) So full of itself that it’s oblivious of the criticism that does exist and b) Hypocritical