Sorry, I could have been clearer there. Let’s try “How does that relate to your claim that only out-groups are allowed to have a recognized culture?”
Then how are you able to assert so confidently that it exists?
Drawing from the Grandparent thread (WhiteDate and several other "White" sites scraped for data), I think there isn’t a direct problem with some sort of communal “white” culture, though it would much more likely be identified as a general American culture in the USA.
The indirect but huge problem is that most of the “White” culture definitions are based around excluding as many other cultures and philosophies to narrow it down to a very specific philosophy that also includes numerous Christian National, Anti-Women, etc. etc. etc. demands.
You can check on of the associated “white dating websites” that @reply linked too and a small section I quoted from it in the Parent thread, I don’t even want to look at it again.
Or as a further political point, I’ve previously talked about what was to me a semi-valid distinction between Republican Points and MAGA points, but at this point the latter has so taken over the former that it’s functionally a distinction without merit. White culture advocates have pushed the definition of “white” culture so far out of any reasonable norm or definition that their POV has become the new normal. Sure, it’s possible to talk about pride in a specific “white” heritage or traditions, but most people are (correctly) going to be extremely skeptical given how it’s been and being used.
And I’ll mention how a lot of “white” people mentioned upthread (especially the Irish and Scottish) weren’t really considered “white” in the first place in the historical context, so we’re back to not even being able to identify what the hell “white” is anyway!
At least in the United States, anybody who is not white knows the answer to this question. If you’re white and in the US, your lived experience is most likely “white culture”, but you may just think of it as ‘every day life’.
I don’t think there was a point where the Scots were considered non-White in the US.
My WAG is that a lot of the discrimination against the Irish in the US was because many of them were Catholic, while the Scottish were mostly Protestant. I know that’s not entirely why the “othering” happened back then, but I suspect that was the difference in this case.
We make jokes about bland white people food. Tim Walz poked fun at his “white guy” tacos during the last election. I’m inclined to agree there’s a White culture insofar as there’s a Black culture here in the United States. It’s a little disconcerting to say that because most people who talk about white culture aren’t all that nice.
I’m really torn on this, because whiteness as an category was invented to differentiate from blackness as a category, which itself was invented out of whole cloth simply to rationalize why Africans could be kidnapped and enslaved.
I’m not sure how to express this theory very well, but I don’t think ethnicity is something that can be invented, it has to emerge from a people’s history and culture. Black people had certain circumstances forced upon them, it wasn’t chosen, so their ethnicity is real and legitimate.
I’m not sure about white ethnicity though. It was chosen as a class discriminator (and still is). I’m of European descent, but I refuse to identify as “white” for reasons described above. Yet that seems problematic as well, because can I legitimately declare myself to be non-ethnic? That seems too close to “I don’t see color”.
I do have some idea of what white culture is, of certain behaviors and values. But it’s hard to talk about it for 2 reasons - first, the cliche that the fish can’t see the water it swims in, and second, a lot of it is downstream of privileged assumptions and attitudes. It’s not a thing to celebrate, more something that I just hope goes away. But I still don’t know how to square the idea that some people like myself may not have a real culture or ethnicity so much as a designation of social status.
Sorry, @miller and @Atamasama I was responding poorly and over-generalized. One, it should have been Irish, not Scots as you correctly pointed out. Second, more that the Irish immigrants were considered “non-white” because of their culture (mostly their Catholicism) rather than their appearance.
[ one of those it made sense in my head but getting from there to my fingers and thus the screen was the point of failure, which is why I should ALWAYS proofread and edit and every time I forget it bites me in the rear ]
I was sloppy and didn’t edit for clarity or intent. Mea culpa.
Yeah, tru dat. There’s culture, and then there’s weaponizing your culture.
It makes things problematic yes, because they by default get to define “white culture”. The same goes with “Southern culture and traditions”, which is often equated (by them) with “white culture”.
If you listen to the people who most loudly defend them, you’d think that the South is a version of Mordor without a single good aspect to it, and white people are orcs lacking in any sort of redeeming quality.
But that’s not the “white culture” I’m talking about.
And the narrator of “Weird Al” Yankovic’s “White and Nerdy” boasts that he orders all his sandwiches with mayonnaise - presumably an example of whiteness and not nerdiness.
ETA: also, having a preference for the “Happy Days” theme song.
Years ago, the History Channel had a mini-series about Southern culture, before they pivoted to Ice Truckers and Aliens. On one episode, there was Black girl who was getting ready for homecoming (or prom), buying her dress, getting her hair done, etc., etc. That kind of a thing is a big deal in a lot of Southern towns. I don’t know what led to it, but this girl said something like, “Yes, I’m Black, but I’m still a Southern girl,” in reference to her participation in a common Southern custom.
I don’t think it’s possible to separate Black culture from Southern culture in general. Everything from our food, our language, and even our music is intertwined with the Africa diaspora.
I think you’re onto something, and it’s really similar to what I’m trying to get at upthread.
I think there’s an element of exclusiveness to it that “white culture” doesn’t have. Most of white culture is really middle class culture or generic European derived stuff, none of which is exclusive to white Americans.
I mean, if a Mexican family in the US wanted to just do all the “American” stuff, nobody would bat an eye. But people get weird about white people doing some Mexican stuff- accusations of cultural appropriation or the like start getting thrown around really fast around 5/5, and I’ve even heard people say disparaging stuff about white people eating tamales for Christmas.
I guess the way I look at it is that while a Mexican guy has this whole rich ethnic background, with music, foods, dances, specific celebrations, and the like, I don’t have anything like that. I’ve got generic American stuff that isn’t “ours” in a cultural sense. It’s honestly something I sort of envy people with ethnic backgrounds to a certain degree.
Like I was saying, and @ParallelLines pointed out too, the real issue is that the people trying to define “white culture” now are leaning hard into the exclusionary aspects by trying to define that stuff from on high. It’s probably the flip side of the package deal right-wing I’ve talked about before, where if you identify as Republican, you probably idolize the “country” lifestyle, listen to country music, wear certain clothes, drive certain kinds of cars, vote a certain way, worship in certain churches, and so forth.
That’s exactly what I’m saying; even the stuff that’s often considered white culture, really isn’t, and isn’t exclusive.
Yeah, that’s why I called culture an overlapping Venn diagram. If you look at for example “white culture”, “black culture” and “Southern culture” there’s going to be a significant area where they all overlap. There’s no neat separation.
The original theme, or the one used in syndication? (As if it matters!)
An amazing amount of “American” culture comes from people not considered white now and even more from people not considered white at (let’s say) the time of the Civil war (or worse - at the time of the Revolutionary War). Jazz and rock are obvious, but pasta and pizza and many other things count as well (you wouldn’t find a Christmas tree in the States 200 years ago - and the first Christmas tree at the White House was erected in 1889).
Gaze upon this cartoon of how the now-white Irish were portrayed in the 19th century
That’s the context in which Franklin described Irish, Swedes, Italians, French and most Germans as swarthy folk as opposed to “white”
I’m still wondering if anyone can name a few things that are “white culture”, that are distinct from “American” culture.
Folks seem really sure that it exists, but are reticent or unable to describe it.
“Ours” meaning white folks? 'Cause generic American stuff that comes from the American melting pot is “ours” in a cultural sense.
I think the problem with defining a “white culture” is that, aside from not really being a single monolithic culture, is the fact that white folk are the numerically and economically dominant demographic in the United States creates some elitist and racist overtones.
Sort of the flip side of that is “white culture” in America is often described as a sort of bland, ethically neutral, affluent suburban culture. Think nearly any rom-com or sitcom from the past several decades featuring a predominantly white cast.
White culture exists all through Europe and the post european west. However its not a monolith and there are roughly 1 billion Caucasians on earth.
However does any racial group have a monolithic culture? Black culture in the US is different from black culture in Kenya, and different from black culture in France.