This discussion started in the George Carlin thread. Is there such a thing as “black culture”, “white culture,” “gay culture,” or “straight culture”? Do these categories define you as a person?
Scylla wrote,
What are “straight cultural mores”? Just because I’m a gay man doesn’t mean that I squeal, “You go, girl!” and cruise men everywhere I go. Just because I’m a white man doesn’t mean that I don’t like The Roots or eat pork BBQ and collard greens, or kimchi and bulgogi, for that matter.
gobear:
You know you’re putting words in my mouth, don’t you?
I never said that one is defined by one’s race or sexual preference.
I think a person defines themselves according to their own criteria.
Culture is simply the sum of common traits and similarities held by different groups of people.
Never suggested otherwise.
So what are straight cultural mores, you ask?
Interesting that you ask, because I’ve been thinking about this. The relationship between straight males is often defined by competition and support in early adolescence. Relationships can often be extremely rigid and defined between straight males. You can joke about, but there are a whole bunch of “rules” that straight men follow to a greater or lesser degree. Mores are simply these rules and behaviors. They are best defined not by themselves, but by their differences with other groups. They are also not hard and fast rules, they are simply tendencies.
I’m not putting words in your mouth. The first paragraph asked questions, the second was a direct quote, the third was my take on what you said.
You wrote:
So, how are they different from gay guy mores?
I think “defines” is a bit much. But I don’t think anyone would quibble with the notion that these things frequently “influence” people’s culture.
I will grant that there are legitimate regional cultures. In the South, we say “y’all,” we go to church a lot (I’m an exception to the rule), and we serve iced tea sweetened.
Since it was my remark to Scylla which prompted this debate, I suppose I should reply.
I was a little surprised to see Scylla, who I do NOT think is a bigot, say, “A black man can reject his culture,” so I replied, “What culture is that?” I was curious as to what general set of behaviors Scylla felt was shared by all black men beyond their skin color, behaviors that are apparently universal yet rejectable.
Scylla replied, “The black culture,” and I replied, “I was’t aware there was one; thanks for setting me straight.” Perhaps a little flippantly, but if that’s as far as he cared to illuminate his response, I wasn’t going to press the issue.
Anyway, none of this changes the fact that a black man can reject all the culture he wants and it isn’t going to change his skin color; and there are always going to be people, no matter what cultural trappings someone adopts, who are going to see other people as no more than the color of their skin.
I don’t want to attack what gobear quoted Scylla as saying in the OP, as I haven’t really kept up on the other thread, and I’m not entirely sure of the context.
But on the surface it seems to be flawed. It’s more of a person-by-person deal than a cultural one as far as I’m concerned.
I’m a straight male. I am much more comfortable in a gay bar than I am at a church gathering.
I think sometimes “stereotypes” can be mistaken for “culture”.
Well, there’s no doubt that sexuality influences someones experiences, and experiences influence beliefs, but I think it’s a mistake to say individuals have culture, except in that whole “Don’t put your elbows on the table” sort of way. A culture is a big, overarching term that refers to the shared beliefs, values, history, and traditions of an entire group. Sexuality isn’t sufficient to define that. There are “gay subcultures”, in areas where a large number of gay people have settled, and developed a sense of common beliefs, values, histories, and traditions (such as Dupont Circle here, or the Castro, in SF, or Greenwich Village in NYC), but in a case like that, while sexuality plays a role in the development of the subculture, sexuality doesn’t create the subculture. At any rate, most gay people don’t live in those areas, and are culturally indistinguishable from their straight neighbors. This doesn’t mean that they’ve adopted “straight cultural mores” for convienence. , just that those cultural mores cross lines of sexual orientation, and they don’t conform to stereotypes of what a gay person should be.
Well it’s an interesting discussion trying to seperate stereotypes from culture. I think the latter sometimes begets the former.
I don’t think there’s a uniform black culture. I do think that there are some similarities between regional subcultures of black people. So, if you say “Black culture,” you are describing a legitimate entity, you’re just not being very precise.
So, let me try two different statements. One will be a stereotype and the other will be a cultural descriptor.
Stereotype: “Black people like fried chicken.”
Cultural descriptor: “Soul food has it’s roots in Southern black culture.”
One is a bigoted statement. One is not, IMO.
Are we on the same page?
Of course. This is still a one page thread.
You’re right. Statement two isn’t a bigoted statement. It is, however, overly broad, as you recognize. (Just a nitpick, what we’re talking about probably could be described more as a subculture than as a culture) You’d do better to say:
“Soul food has its roots in the southeastern black sub-culture”
or even better to say
“Soul food has its roots in the rural southeastern black subculture”
and even more accurate to say,
“Soul food has its roots in the subculture that developed among rural sharecroppers in the American southeast during Reconstruction and its immediate aftermath.”
The last statement is the best, because it’s the best descriptor of the subculture, which didn’t develop because of race (except indirectly), but socioeconomics.
Excellent post, Scylla. That’s exactly how I see things.
Exactly.
Captain Amazing
I don’t really disagree with your post. But I would note that in modern times, mass media has made it possible for people to group together in a cultural sense without geographic proximity. Like special interest publications, etc. Though geography obviously helps.
referring to the first one.
Do you disagree with the second? 
Of course not. Its obvious that this is still a one page thread. 
I disagree. It is not a bigoted statement. Bigotry is prejudicial hatred; there’s nothing hateful about assuming a particular racial group has a tendancy to like a particular kind of food. If we can assume that blacks do (or did) eat fried chicken at a higher than average rate, then FC is part of African-American culture. Sterotyping is when you assume a particular individual with a particular identifying characteristic embraces a certain cultural aspect.
Doesn’t culture also include a shared history and/or heritage? I certainly consider the gay community part of the several cultures that have influenced who I am today (gay, male, white, American, rice queen, musician, secretary, sci-fi fan, and so forth). The history I share with them is important to me, and the community atmosphere is one I find to be comfortable, so I self-identify more with that culture/community.
Esprix
Esprix:
What’s a rice queen?
It’s a gay motorcyclist partial to “rice burner” i.e. japanese motorcycles, right?
A “rice queen” is a homosexual with a predilection for Asian men.