Does your race or sexuality define your culture?

Izzy:

You make a good point. I tried to make sure my guesses directly followed from the cultural groups the person assigned themselves.

After reviewing my old copy of Mindhunter by Stephen Douglas the FBI profiler, I tried to see how the combination of one’s cultural groups affected their choices and personality.

For example, Gobear’s interest in punk rock says a lot about what kind of guy he is. At first glance, it doesn’t seem to fit, but when you consider that Punk Rock is played very loud, and moshing is a very physical activity it starts to make sense. Gobear’s interests are most solitary or one on one, and though punk rock concerts are very crowded and physical it’s basically a solitary almost combative activity. Weightlifting is also solitary. The physicality of both these activities suggest that they are an outlet. Seeing as Gobear has his safety fuses built in, I guessed that he was very undemonstrative and reserved outside of those pursuits. Most importantly, they seem like they are intentional outlets.

Editing is very intense. An editor of a paper has to threaten and cajole people and keep a team running to get a paper out. I didn’t see that as appealing to a man who loves Scrabble, is undemonstrative, and works out his frustrations with punk rock and weightlifting.

Editing a book on the other hand is a collossal and involved solitary pursuit. It’s a sustained effort, rather than a mad rush. This fits well with the idea that Gobear likes to work things out carefully.

So we picture a quiet, physically imposing man, who internalizes his emotions, allowing them only very specific outlets. He is a careful thinker, and if he plays cards, he’s gives nothing away.

Sounds like John Wayne, doesn’t it? Only allowing specific outlets for his emotions, suggests a man who gives nothing away emotionally. He probably does not advertise that he’s gay, and casual acquaintances don’t think he is. Stereotypically a lot of manly looking gay men wear mustaches or facial hair. A mustache is also something like a mask. It conceals your true self, and helps you give nothing away. Literary types and academics are also prone to facial hair. So, while I thought that a mustache would appeal to Gobear on several levels.

Technophile, scrabble, editor, all suggest a deep thinker, and a lover of utility over form. hence the clothing, and automobile choices. We’re hypothesizing a very stable personality as well which is why I guessed that he had settled down and had been in the same place for a while, as well as the choices in Sci-fi that he would like.
So that was my thinking.

But, you’re probably right. I’ve spoken to gobear on these boards a while, and that may have influenced my thinking and made me do better than if I knew nothing, though I tried to confine my thinking to the cultural groups he stated.

Let’s see what esprix says.

Then maybe we try it on somebody I haven’t had contact with.

Mindhunter sounds like a fascinating book. I am sure I could learn a lot about myself from reading it.

I am also still interested in your train of thought regarding my “culture.” :wink:

MR

Scylla

Your analysis is very interesting. But I don’t think this is analogous to what was being discussed in this thread. The fact that a person who is interested in Punk Rock might have Character Trait X, or that an editor might be of Type Y, is a logical deduction, as you show. It does not assume a group culture for Punk Rock fans, or of editors. If it should turn out that editors are disproportionately intense solitary people, this is likely because - as you suggest - such a type of person is drawn to editing. It is not because there exists a cultural subgroup of “editors” who share in a common culture. The premise of this thread is whether race and sexuality are the basis for shared cultures, which define, or at least influence, their individual members.

Maeglin:

The fencing and the Latin were probably the most important cues. Both require discipline, both are highly esoteric, and they are both uncommon, but odd choices. I would have thought you a medeavilist, and I would think that you have interests there, but would be disapointed in the the sloppy attitudes (in your opinion,) in which medievalists pursue their hobby; more socially, than scholarly. Ancient or unusual law, seemed like a gimme based on your career choices.

The unusual tastes, and interest in forgotten disciplines suggests that you are dissatisfied or at least question the conventional. To study Latin or become a proficient fencer requires tremendous discipline, and I would imagine that you extend this to other areas of your life, and are successful in your pursuits even when your unconventional methods are less efficient. Big showy muscles, are a style right now, and being unconventional it seemed natural in conjunction with your fencing that you would go for the lean whippet look as being most appropriate to your personality. Put this together with your academic aspirations and one almost gets the impression of a medeival ascetic monk.

Success with unconventional solutions and means, would suggest a personality that could deal with unusual problems, and that’s a rarity, one that people are going to want to take advantage of. Hence, they ask you for advice, but the unconventional is also troublesome, so people aren’t entirely comfortable with you.

I also thought that your unconventional looks and demeanor would make you a babe magnet, but not shallow women. I also thought that you would probably find them interesting, but take them for granted and not be willing to invest an awful lot of time into a relationship. I saw women pursuing you more than the other way around. The spartan tastes fit well with the monk archetype, that you seem to pursue. I thought your appearance would be unconventional, and very short hair is in fashion. Therefore, I thought yours would be longer, as was the fashion in ancient times.

Izzy:

I asked for cultural cues and played off of what was given. Whether or not there is a “culture” for editors or “fencers” is beyond the purvue of this little exercise.

I claim no special insights, just trying to put two and two together. If you grant that editors have their own culture, and “Punk Rock” has its own culture, and you put the two together, it gives you interesting insights. That’s all I’m suggesting.

Izzy:

And everybody I’ve done has been a white male, and that certainly influenced my choices.

In Maeglin’s case, I don’t think his race would have made much difference, but I would have substantively changed my predictions if either goboy or esprix were black, for example.

Close, but if it were a test, I’d have to fail ya.

(Why did you list “rice queen” twice and forget “sci-fi fan?”)

1. You make 22k a year.
No. You’re underselling me by several thousand dollars.

2. You change jobs every on average once a year.
Yes and no. I worked for the same company for three years until just this week, but it was a temporary employment agency, so I changed assignments every three, six or nine months, but not companies, (and over two of those years were spent in different assignments in different departments, but all at the same company through the same agency). Plus I actually had fierce loyalty to the agency until very recently.

3. You have a slight build…
Yes. Age is catching up with me, however, and I’ve joined a gym.

4. … and cultivate an adrogynous look.
Yes and no. I do not actively cultivate an androgynous look, but I have been mistaken for a butch dyke both from a distance and on the phone; up close, there’s no question, however.

5. You are fashion conscience, but in a modern and unconventional way.
Yes. I’m aware of what’s “in,” but usually don’t give a damn and wear what I think I look best in.

6. You keep your hair short, and have no facial hair.
Yes.

7. You greatly enjoy Neal Stephenson and have read all his books.
No. I know the name but have never read any of his work (although now perhaps I should…).

8. You speak fast.
Yes. I attribute this to being born and raised in the northeastern part of the country (Philadelphia).

9. You play a wind instrument like a lute, something light and airy (2nd guess would be an unusual string instrument.)
No. First, a clarification - a lute is a string instrument, not a wind instrument (and an unusual string instrument at that, as it’s basically a Medieval guitar). If you meant “flute,” you’re still wrong - that was my sisters. I started on trumpet, eventually picked up french horn and mellophone, but my music career has centered squarely on my voice since high school.

10. You are extremely social.
Yes. Can’t lie on this one, as I’ve already been to two LA Dopefests and there are witnesses. :slight_smile:

11. You have no pets or if you do it’s something like a bird or a goldfish.
No. In Philadelphia I have a cat (which now resides with my parents), and in San Diego the household has a dog (which belongs to my housemates, and I help take care of her).

12. You like to eat out or order take out.
Yes and no. Who doesn’t like dining out? But I’m very picky about what I eat, so given the choice I’d just as soon eat in and know that I’m going to like what I order.

13. Failing that you cook something quick and easy.
Yes.

14. You have a cleanliness fetish.
No. My bedroom is a disaster and my bathroom has things growing in it. I do keep the kitchen fairly clean, though.

15. You drive a small import like a civic, or don’t have a car.
No. I have a Neon. I did go over two years without owning my own car, but that was only because I had my mother’s at my disposal; if I hadn’t, I surely would have bought one.

16. … your relationships are tumultuous and frequent…
Yes. Sad, but true. :frowning:

17. … you travel a lot…
Yes.

18. … and are estranged from at least one parent, probably your father.
No. I get along extremely well with both of my parents.

So, out of eighteen statements, you got eight right (including having cheated on two), seven wrong, and three partial credit. Roughly fifty percent is still a failing grade, I’m afraid. I, too, would be curious as to know your thought processes regarding your assessment of me.

This confirms what I’ve been saying all along - we are part of a whole, and yet we still remain individual. I do possess some stereotypical attributes from each community to which I belong, but differ enough in both individual expression and having attributes from other groups not be the archtype stereotype of any one particular group. (Then again, maybe I’m just an all-round freak. :smiley: )

When all’s said and done, though, I’m not sure what point you were driving at in the first place. What did you get out of this experiment? Did anybody else get anything out of it?

Esprix

I am so happy that I am every bit as transparent as I suspected all along. :wink:

Actually, I am a medievalist. Formerly of medieval history, recently made the jump officially to literature. 9th to 12th centuries mostly, in Latin, Old English, French, German, and Occitan.

And a resounding yes to your second observation. While I have some friends who are interested in non-academic medieval organizations, and I know several posters whom I respect also enjoy the same pastime, I can say with more than a little certainty that it is not for me.

They can’t use weapons to save their lives, but apparently their home brew is rather good.

Yes. I also question my conventional questioning of the conventional, if you take my meaning. Since advertising and business pop-philosophy has appropriated “thinking outside the box” and “paradigm shifting” and consequently banalizing them, I am left without a familiar medium of dissent. Hence your observation that:

…is particularly key. My academics is what I really care about, and my asceticism (except when I choose not to be ascetic ;)) is my means of dissent.

Well, in all fairness, I have the body that my genes gave me. I am shorter than average, with extremely fine bones. I can wrap my thumb and middle finger around my wrist all the way to the first joint. Given my small frame, even if I did choose to gain weight, I suspect I would look ridiculous.

Absolutely. I have often found myself a shoulder that people cry on when they need advice on how to order my life. But my usually withdrawn nature (in person, if not in writing) doesn’t net me a whole lot of love. Especially since women assume that due to my nature, I am simply not all that interested in intimacy.

I honestly wouldn’t know. First, I am extremely oblivious to the “signs.” Second, I was very reclusive in high school, so I gained no experience there. I met the girl I was to date for almost five years the day I arrived at college, so I didn’t particularly feel pursued there either. Now that I am single and fairly worldly, we shall have to see.

Yes and no. I have my weaknesses, too. :wink: There is a girl now…to spare everyone the details, I am not particularly interested. But since I have withdrawn, she has grown more insistent. It is becoming a difficult situation, and one that I am most unused to.

Yet short hair is necessary for the monastic, or as my old Jewish grandparents would say, the “Nazi” look. I actually had my hair buzzed really short for the first time a few years ago when I got tired of dealing with it. It’s too thick and wavy to be good for anything else.

Even in high school, people called me “Brother Martin.” To be perfectly honest, I didn’t understand it at the time.

Well, now several people know a lot more about me that they probably intended. But this has been a truly fascinating exercise, to say the least.

MR

Er, organize their lives.

Esprix:

Well Sir, apparently you are an enigma that defies description or analysis :wink:

I was doing so well too, and I thought you would be a shoe-in since you said you were somewhat stereotypical.

Drat!

Did it solve anything, or prove anything?

No, but it was fun.

I’ll share my analysis when I have a little more time.

Interesting thread, I hope I can drag it back on topic somewhat…

I’ve lately been curious about a “black culture” myself. Having participated or lurked in the many race threads here. Is it defineable? I’d have to say yes on an emotional level, but no on a intelectual level. I sometimes notice a schism between myself and some other black people, but then I don’t really think of myself of having made a concious decision to be any different than I’ve turned out.

Am I making sense?

Well, this exercise is not what I had intended with the OP, but it has been fascinating, nonetheless.

I like punk because of its energy and it allows me to get out my aggression. Weightlifting is good for me because I only compete against myself. Because of an abusive childhood, I have always been distrustful and solitary, never letting myself get too close to other people. It amazes me that I’ve fallen in love with BF.

I’m content to sit in my office and work on a project by myself. Unlike most people, I’m comfortable with solitude.

I’m 5’8 and 165 lbs so I don’t qualify as physically imposing. I’m muscular, but it’s most visible when I take off my shirt. With my shirt on, I just look fit. My ambition is to bulk up so I will look like a bodybuilder.I do internalize my emotions, leading some people to call me passive-aggressive, which is unfair. I’m always honest with people, but I can’t yell and scream at people when I get angry or feel hurt. Instead, I withdraw inside myself and get eerily calm. Feeling strong emotions is inexpressibly painful to me, so I repress my feelings.
I have a horror of weakness or dependence. This shows up in my tendency to not call the doctor unless I’m deathly ill and to not let on when I’m unhappy.

You’ll have to ask Dopers who’ve met me, like Geobabe, Iampunha, or WeirdDave if I’m outwardly gay. I know that a lot of folks have been surprised when I’ve told them. I don’t advertise, but I don’t hide it, either. I treat being gay like being a SF fan or being left-handed; it’s just one aspect of my life.

I look terrible in facial hair. I also think that facial hair makes a man look weaker, not stronger. I am in no way a literary type or an academic. OK, I edit books, but I’m still a regular guy, not some Brie-chewing, chardonnay-sipping, New York Review of Books-reading wussy.

I doubt anyone on the SDMB would consider me sentient, let alone a deep thinker. I don’t actually own a vehicle right now, but I have always preferred pickups and other cars. I like dependability and the beauty of older models.

Despite being off-track, it is on-track nevertheless. The question has redirected itself. How much can you tell about a person from his/her participation in other “cultures?”

As for “black” culture, I am quite dubious. Unless we are all talking about different things, I see so-called black culture as urban, quasi-inner city culture, which as been adopted and appropriated by numerous other ethnic groups. Alternatively, I agree that watermelon-eating, chicken-frying black culture is regional rather than racial, hence almost coincidental that its most visible proponents happen to be black.

While I don’t feel that there are any distinctive “cultures” defined by race and sexuality, I do believe that people fall into archetypes based on those they know who participate in said categories. Individual imitation, if you will.

I don’t think anyone would claim that all Black people are alike in all respects - or if they did they’d be fools anyway. But there is presumably some general tendencies that are different in many cases. I would imagine that if you did a study of the Black media vs. the general media you might find some differences.

So you don’t have to make a concious decision to be different in order to have some or many differences. But if a person is very different than others of his background there is an increased likelihood that they have made a concious decision to be different, though obviously it would not be true in all cases.

The Black term for a Black person who adopted White mannerisms and culture is a “house nigger”. And someone who deliberately attempts to differentiate themselves from the Black community would be an “Uncle Tom”. (Or at least they used to - maybe this has changed in recent years.)

I agree and disagree.

First, is “culture” (or can it be) defined by community? Heritage? History? For example, is there an American “culture?” English? Japanese? Australian? I’d say, if you look at a large group of people’s shared history, it does affect them as a group of people. The Cold War, Hiroshima, apartheid - these things affected entire countries, and in turn everyone residing in those countries. There has to be some culture affected there (IMHO).

Second, if we look at the actual culture (i.e., art, expression, etc.) of “culture,” I’d have to say there are some pretty distinct definitions. The gay community shares a history of shame, oppression and struggle, and its art reflects that (if we can or do, indeed, look at some art as art that reflects, for lack of a better term, a “gay sensibility,” be it by a gay artist or a non-gay artist [since not all gay artists produce what might be considered “gay art”]). Black musicians, for example, often use their urban history as the backdrop for their art; certainly 1800’s artwork by black artists reflected the “black sensibility” of slavery and oppression. As a would-be artist, I bring the influences of those cultures that affect me directly into my artwork (isn’t that one definition of an artist?).

Esprix

I just wanted to pipe up here and say this is a very interesting thread! These are questions that have occurred to me, too, and I’m enjoying reading everyone’s thoughts on this.

I THINK I agree with whoever it was that pointed out there’s a difference between actual “culture” and societal stereotypes. If I were to observe a black person walking down the street bopping his head and carrying a boom box on his shoulder, I might be inclined to think of that as a “black thing”, whereas it is more likely a single occurance of something that just happens to fit my own unfair stereotype. I am sure if I observed a caucasian doing the same thing, it probably wouldn’t even register – but because I am aware of the stereotype, I am probably inclined to make the assumption.

However, I must ask (and please understand I am asking out of ignorance in the truest sense of the word): aren’t there some cultural differences between caucasians and blacks? For one instance, is it not true that black women have a different cultural norm in terms of body image? And that (as a rule) white women tend to see the Barbie doll figure as ideal, whereas black women see the “goddess” figure as being more beautiful? Or is this also a stereotype?

No races don’t define sexuality. Some people who
don’t have active sex lives complain that their
race is drying up and then turn around and hate
other races for being sexually active.

Still their are other people from ALL races who
will always be virgins and asexual successfully
because it is what they desire.

Scylla -

I’m a new doper and also female - if you care to test your skills on someone you really know nothing about, I’m game!

Single, white, straight female. Mac user, work in advertising (client service and “sysadmin by default”. Born in NY, have lived in Vienna, Austria, for most of my life though. Enjoy most styles of music, but especially r&b, hiphop, triphop, soul, reggae. Can’t stand techno. No sports to speak of.

If you need more, let me know.

  • Chris

I look very masculine. I love a good chardonnay, and I think brie is quite excellent.

For an editor, a gay man, and someone who is obviously exposed to culture, you seem to rail hard against stereotypes as you also help reinforce them.

Though I will admit, the New York Review of Books is a crashing bore to read.

Um, what are you talking about?

Re-read the topic. I think you’re missing an “or” in there.

Esprix