Doesn't anyone make believe anymore?

[AHunter3]

Did any of you folks READ his web site? It seems pretty obvious that the guy is utilizing Peter Pan as a symbolic character that represents something he wants to be understood as. (Sort of like “Dark Queen of the Unholy Lesbian Vampire Army of the Night” except from a different corner of things).

Now you may still think he is carrying things too far. I do not by any means intend to imply that Una garbs herself in seriously gothic raiments or accumulates Transylvanian accessories and bedroom trappings. OTOH, if she did, I would assume she found social and political meaning in the “Dark Queen” motif and enjoyed using it as a regular, ongoing expression of herself. I would not say that she was an immature person who was seriously into playing dress-up. (I might beg for JPEGs and wish I could participate in andygirl’s lesbian orgy, but that’s probably not relevant. Or is it? Consider Peter Pan as an expression of male sexuality. Different, male, playful, whimsical…?

[Spiritus_Mundi]

Imaginary lands. Imaginary people. Imaginary friends (hey, you take what you can get.)

Preach it brother Matt.

Imagination keeps the mind nimble, vigorous and engaged. You have my fantasies when you pry them from my cold, grey synapses. (hmmm – some metaphors just don’t translate.)

[matt_mcl]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
**On the one hand, we have a 47-year-old man who dresses up like Peter Pan, complete with summer closes and winter clothes and work clothes, all a la Pan.

And?

it apparently is not PC to point out that it’s amusing – it’s amusing

Of course it’s amusing. What it’s Plainly not Courteous to do is to express amusement through outright mockery, rather than, say, trying to see what he thinks is so amusing.

[quote[We are dealing with a person who blurs the line between fantasy (a fictional children’s story) and reality (the life he has to live, which he is apparently not truly comfortable living as his own self, but rather as Peter Pan). [/quote]

And how do you know what “his true self” is? He has a very long page in which he more or less describes his life story, his feeling of alienation from traditional gender roles and the like. I’ve had people telling me that this or that (being a loner, being gay, being femme, being goth, being political, being left-wing, being Keynesian, whatever) is “not really who I am” by various well-intentioned people who really had no clue at all.

this man is not Peter Pan, and he doesn’t become Peter Pan by dressing like him.

Why do you think he believes that he is literally a fictional pixie created by J.M. Barrie, rather than someone with similar qualities?

Now Peter Pan may well have qualities this person admires, but most of us do not make a commitment to dress like fictional characters just because we admire them.

And this is what’s the skin off your nose? That he’s doing something that most of us don’t do? Well then. I suppose it would be preferable for each person to colour within the lines all the time, lest they be mocked.

I don’t think they are. I think social weapons like ridicule are used against people who indicate that they don’t know the difference between fantasy and reality, or adulthood and childhood, or who refuse to acknoweldge such differences exists.

What is the difference between people who “don’t know” or “don’t acknowledge” the difference between what’s appropriate for an adult and a child in terms of dress and mannerisms, and people who “don’t know” or “don’t acknowledge” the difference between male and female in the same terms? Do you laugh at a male who has decided that she would much rather be a woman, and acts and dresses accordingly? If not, why not?

[matt_mcl]

*Originally posted by rjung *
My only concern with such fanciful diversions is when someone is clearly unqualified for the “role” at hand – such as, say, a grossly overweight guy dressing up as a Klingon and proclaming himself the greatest Klingon warrior evere known. Uh, no, bub, first you get in shape, then we’ll talk… **

You dare to insult the proportions of the mighty Chancellor Martok, before whom squadrons of Jem’Hadar quail in terror? petaQ!

[Kamino_Neko]

*Originally posted by QuickSilver *
**

“When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.” I Cor. xiii. 11.

**

Or, Contrarily:

When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947

I tend to think Lewis had by far the healthier take on things.

[Medea_s_Child]

Imagination is one of the coolest things about humanity. Considering how many uncool things there are I really don’t understand anyone griping about it. Even as a “waste of time”.

Birdwatching doesn’t make money, and it certainly doesn’t appeal to me. (Imagination as sport does have mass appeal) Does that mean I can sneer at it as childish and something to be left to children and/or old fogeys? No. It adds happiness into the world without hurting anyone or anything. As long as no one is holding me as gunpoint focing me to pan the wilds for a yellow tongued snaphatch, its a wonderful hobby. (Maybe the kooks get a little too into it, with having calendars, meetings, and wearing bird jewelry, I think they even have some books, but hey, whatever floats thier boats.)

I’m very into fantasy. I role play, I have fairy wings hanging on my wall. Its part of who I am. I feel comfortable acting out a different persona for fun. I feel very comfortable dreeing like a tavern wench and really relaxing. The happy-go-lucky, slightly bawdy ren-faire attitude could easily be argued to be “more me” than the solemn engineering student I play a few hours a week.

Who is anyone to demand that someone else has to fit in a predefined, already full box? If you feel comfortable being ‘like everyone else’, ‘seeing the world as it is’, and ‘keeping your feet on the ground’, fine. Have a blast, I’ll be dancing in the rain spouting poetry.

[sub]Tengu, love that quote.[/sub]

[matt_mcl]

In our times, from the highest class of society down to the lowest, every one lives as under the eye of a hostile and dreaded censorship. Not only in what concerns others, but in what concerns only themselves, the individual or the family do not ask themselves - what do I prefer? or, what would suit my character and disposition? or, what would allow the best and highest in me to have fair play, and enable it to grow and thrive? They ask themselves, what is suitable to my position? what is usually done by persons of my station and pecuniary circumstances? or (worse still) what is usually done by persons of a station and circumstances superior to mine? I do not mean that they choose what is customary, in preference to what suits their inclination. It does not occur to them to have any inclination, except for what is customary.

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

[DarkJudicator]

Just because someone happens to pay attention to the details of a fantasy, doesn’t mean they think it’s reality.

I roleplayed on the net for a little over a year. In that time I developed a character so well I can tell you what he looks like, where he lives, the circumstances of his childhood - hell, I could probably tell you what he eats for breakfast (Okay, so that’s exaggerating a little…). I can pretty much picture his life in detail, but that doesn’t mean I’m under the illusion that this guy actually exists, much less that I -am- him. Sure, I can act like him, but it IS an act.

So this guy who dresses up like Peter Pan and whatever… okay, he thinks Peter Pan is cool. He’s imitating him. Doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with him. I’m thinking of pointing LeSang this way since he wants examples of deviant behaviour. Sure, dressing up like Peter Pan is unusual, but that doesn’t make it a bad thing. It’s simply a perspective thing - from the point of view of a toddler, Daddy getting dressed up in a suit everyday and going to some place he always complains about must seem weird.

[erislover]

No. What we have here is a guy who has taken a “hobby” or affinity for Peter Pan and turned it into something more, to the extent that he cuts his hair like Pan, dresses like Pan, has his own self-glorifyng website, and seeks his own “Tinkerbell.” We are dealing with a person who blurs the line between fantasy (a fictional children’s story) and reality (the life he has to live, which he is apparently not truly comfortable living as his own self, but rather as Peter Pan).

This is far, far different, IMO, from a person who has a fantasy-based hobby.

Fantasy how? If he changed his name to Peter Pan would he be even more crazy? What about those who try to live their life like Jesus, or Buddha?

I find these comments to draw a line between a person who is comforted by identifying with something but “knows” its not real and a person who is comforted by identifying with something but “knows” that this is really them. At what point should we stop identifying with ideas espoused by other people? If Peter Pan was an apostle, could we still dress up like him?

[Badtz_Maru]

I’ve spent well over a month designing a fantasy world for a 3rd Edition D&D game I am going to start a campaign in weekend after next. This includes maps, cosmology, a pantheon of over 100 gods, and 20,000 years worth of history. I’ve never been able to give up that element of make-believe.

[Lux_Fiat]

From homeboy’s webpage:

Of course life is not a game, and I do strive to continually grow in emotional, spiritual, and mental maturity. But there is and always was this lighter side to me. Childlike, “pixyish”, and unencumbered by notions of what is and is not permissible for boys. Is 47 too old for such notions? Certainly not! Sometimes it is a difficult and lonely road to be so openly unique, and I confess I am often mystified why something so harmless bothers some people so. But the human spirit is hard to suppress, and I have made my choice to be myself in this life. So in the end, the friends I do make are for real, and each is worth more than 100 phonies.

From his “personal” page:

I actually am expressing myself as best I can with this appearance, and am not playing games. I do this not only because I really like to, but also to spare myself the pain of false friendships. It hurts when people are friendly, and then turn on you later when they find that you’re not what they are accustomed to. Being yourself all the time is always the “road less traveled”, but it surely is the better one in the long run.

From his “Through the Cracks Ministries” page:

Now common sense tells us If God did not love us enough to see us through anything that came our way in this life, that would not be love at all. Jesus warned us that in this world we would have tribulation (John 16:33), and tribulation often means dealing with problems and issues that don’t always simply “go away”. Some problems and tribulations are our own making, and some come without a known origin. Irregardless, our job then as fellow Christians… indeed as fellow human beings, is to offer acceptance, comfort, encouragement, and help to brothers and sisters undergoing such trials. Unfortunately, Christians often choose judgement instead, driving those most in need of fellowship away.

These are not the words of a man fleeing from the real world. Quite the contrary, not only has he committed to finding happiness in his day-to-day life by living a life without pretense, he’s established a web ministry to help others of his faith do the same.

Robert Anton Wilson’s said, “Reality is what you can get away with.” Most of us decided a long time ago that it’s not worth the hassle to test those limits. We subvert parts of ourselves in the name of money, or church, or family, or avoiding an ass-kicking after school. That is, we compromise for fear of retribution. So we have to exact that retribution from those who don’t or won’t compromise, to validate our own fear, and by extension our original decisions not to rock the boat.

So really, God bless this strange, middle-aged pixie-thing, who has the guts to fly his freak flag high, and live life unalloyed, by choice. It’s better than a lot of us manage.

[moi]

By my post count, you’ll note that I’m fairly new to the boards, so I really don’t know matt_mcl from Adam (though Matt does have his own thread ;)). So, I’m amused to see so many folx come back here and apologize to him for critizing/mocking/expressing surprise/whatnot at his and Peter’s hobbies.

Admittedly, their hobbies are different (from each other, as well as from generic hobbies (e.g., collecting stamps, watching Friends)), so I’m not trying to rile anyone up.

But are the hobbies that different from each other (worldbuilding vs. dressing in character)? Is it seeing this fellah dressed like Peter, while Matt’s page is relatively anonymous? Or, in a similar vein, that Matt’s interest “happens” out here on the Web while Randy dresses in the style of Peter Pan in everyday life?

Or, is it “knowing” Matt…and having to incorporate the worldbuilding hobby into a known and respected person…whereas we immediately assume the worst of Randy?

I, for one, roleplay and, having browsed Matt’s site, find it crazyneat. Like the work of the world’s best DM. And, like Cyn, I reallyreally believe that the lessons you learn by taking on another persona can affect and even help who you are (motivation- and confidence-wise, for example).

[moi]

By my post count, you’ll note that I’m fairly new to the boards, so I really don’t know matt_mcl from Adam (though Matt does have his own thread ;)). So, I’m amused to see so many folx come back here and apologize to him for critizing/mocking/expressing surprise/whatnot at his and Peter’s hobbies.

Admittedly, their hobbies are different (from each other, as well as from generic hobbies (e.g., collecting stamps, watching Friends)), so I’m not trying to rile anyone up.

But are the hobbies that different from each other (worldbuilding vs. dressing in character)? Is it seeing this fellah dressed like Peter, while Matt’s page is relatively anonymous? Or, in a similar vein, that Matt’s interest “happens” out here on the Web while Randy dresses in the style of Peter Pan in everyday life?

Or, is it “knowing” Matt…and having to incorporate the worldbuilding hobby into a known and respected person…whereas we immediately assume the worst of Randy?

I, for one, roleplay and, having browsed Matt’s site, find it crazyneat. Like the work of the world’s best DM. And, like Cyn, I reallyreally believe that the lessons you learn by taking on another persona can affect and even help who you are (motivation- and confidence-wise, for example).

[MrVisible]

Another DM checking in. I spend hours a week getting my imaginary land (Burin, and the kingdoms surrounding it) ready for my players to wander about in. I make maps, I design monsters, I paint miniatures, I make props out of Sculpey, I agonize over plotting and timing and structure, all to amuse a bunch of friends every Sunday afternoon.

When I get into conversations with non-roleplayers, explaining what I do on the weekends, the comment I get most frequently is “You’ve got a great imagination. You should do something with it.”

I’m guessing they mean something that could make me money, or get me fame. Instead of getting me hours of entertainment, both in the preparation and the actual game play.

For years I bought it, and tried to be a writer. Creative writing classes, long hours agonizing over short stories I just couldn’t bring myself to care about, adoption of the detatched perspective I needed to see the world about me as subject matter. And it sucked. I really didn’t want to be a rich, famous writer. I wanted to play pretend.

So these days, I make my living in a very normal fashion, as a computer geek for a university. I love my job, I do it well, and with a certain amount of humor and style.

And on the weekends, a group of friends and I get together, and we play. And I doubt if many people get as much enjoyment out of their entire weeks as we get out of those few hours on Sundays.

I feel sorry for anyone who is not a king or a warrior or a princess in their own minds; who’ve never built worlds out of thin air, and lived in them a while. The real world has its place, but human beings can be much too big for it to contain.

[Jodi]

I said:

On the one hand, we have a 47-year-old man who dresses up like Peter Pan, complete with summer closes and winter clothes and work clothes, all a la Pan.

And I find that silly. And I resent, in the mildest way, being informed that I am a big ol’ prejudicial meanie simply because I find it silly.

Of course it’s amusing. What it’s Plainly not Courteous to do is to express amusement through outright mockery, rather than, say, trying to see what he thinks is so amusing.

I have never mocked this man, but to be honest I do not believe I owe him a debt of courtesy to keep my opinions of his dress to myself, any more than I would owe such a debt to a person I saw on the television or in a magazine. Certainly common courtesy would prevent me from commenting on his silliness if I knew him or even met him, but it does not constrain me from commenting on it generally.

Why do you think he believes that he is literally a fictional pixie created by J.M. Barrie, rather than someone with similar qualities?

Obviously not. I said:

Now Peter Pan may well have qualities this person admires, but most of us do not make a commitment to dress like fictional characters just because we admire them.

And this is what’s the skin off your nose? That he’s doing something that most of us don’t do? Well then. I suppose it would be preferable for each person to colour within the lines all the time, lest they be mocked.

The “skin off my nose,” to the extent that there is any, is that people such as yourself wish to tell me that I should allow people to live their own lives as they wish – which, actually, I do – and simultaneously wish to to tell me what I may or may not find amusing – to judge me based on my amusement while simultaneously taking me to task for judging him (since you assume I am judging him, though I am not). I find this very ironic. And, again, I am not mocking this man and I am not advocating mocking him, so I will continue to correct that characterization each time you make it.

What is the difference between people who “don’t know” or “don’t acknowledge” the difference between what’s appropriate for an adult and a child in terms of dress and mannerisms, and people who “don’t know” or “don’t acknowledge” the difference between male and female in the same terms?

I don’t know that I can explain the difference, but there is one. I imagine you would show as much grave respect in the face of a picture of a grown man walking around wearing nothing but a diaper, sucking on a pacifier and embracing the joys of his baby-hood, and that you would frown just as Puritannically at me for being amused by the sight.

Do you laugh at a male who has decided that she would much rather be a woman, and acts and dresses accordingly? If not, why not?

Do place people with serious gender issues in the same category as a man who decided to wear a Goofy suit? In not, why not?

I will reiterate – I am not mocking this guy, and would not mock him; I admire his courage. I find his appearance to be silly and amusing, but I respect his right to dress and he wants for his own good reasons. I am not advocating the abolition of make-believe, either for children or grown-ups. All I am saying is that this: Just as I do not have the right to tell Mr. Pan or anyone what they can or cannot do with their lives, nor does anyone have the right to tell me what I can or cannot be mildly and harmlessly amused by.

[Guinastasia]

Personally-guess what? I DON’T CARE. Yeah, he looks silly, ridiculous, maybe.

BUT, the world is a pretty big place. I’m sure we have room for Peter Pan dressing people.

WHY can’t people wear what we want? Why can’t I wear (well, first I’ll have to be able to AFFORD IT) a long lace and silk charmeuse teagown from the 1920s with a large picture hat and white gloves without being laughed at? Why can’t we wear our prom gowns to the grocery store, and jeans to the ballet?

[Jodi]

GUIN –

Personally-guess what? I DON’T CARE. Yeah, he looks silly, ridiculous, maybe.

And I don’t care, either. I just object to the tendency some people have to tell someone else what they may or may not find funny, all the while claiming that it is adherence to some greater goal of tolerance that justifies the admonishment. It’s thinking like this that makes people think being tolerant has to be synonymous with being humorless.

And you would look smashing in Edwardian clothes.

[Lux_Fiat]

In the interest of complete honesty, I should disclose that the entire time I perused this guy’s fashion page, I cackled like an idiot. The incongruity of a 47-year old man with a medieval squire’s bowl haircut wearing a Little Boy Blue outfit sort of lends itself to comedy.

Originally posted by Jodi:
And I resent, in the mildest way, being informed that I am a big ol’ prejudicial meanie simply because I find it silly.

Not a meany, but certainly prejudicial. Obviously, no one expects us all to join hands and sing about how we’d like to buy the world a Coke. From what I’ve read on his webpage, I expect I’d last about five minutes in Peter Pan’s company before he started to really irritate me. Jodi seems to have drawn a line (of course, I could be wrong, and hope to be corrected if I am) between the abstract concept of the guy doin’ his own thing, which is to be admired, and the frankly silly image of a middle-aged man dressed up like a pre-adolescent pixie. That seems eminently reasonable to me, since I myself reserve the right to take exception to, and even have sport at the expense of, decisions people make, even while I respect and admire their capacity to make those decisions with no regard for what I think of them.

What say y’all?

[ITR_champion]

*Originally posted by matt_mcl *
**Does my attainment of the age of majority and involvement in politics mean I am no longer allowed to have fun and use my imagination and make believe?

**

I’m 18 now and still into make believe. When I was a kid, I would start designing a new make believe world every few years. Unfortunately, they were all just variations of stuff that I saw on TV or in books or video games, so I eventually scrapped them. I’ve now resolved to create something original. It’s slow going, and I’m nowhere near as thorough as your website is.

[flodnak]

Hmm. I’m spending what free time I have creating a fantasy world. It isn’t for the purpose of “escape” either, since I’d much rather live in this world than the one I’m creating. No, I’m doing it for two reasons: I enjoy the intellectual challenge, and I’m writing a book set in that world which I hope to sell to a publisher someday.

The amusing thing, to me, is that the second motive (making money) is the “respectable” one. If I knew for certain that the book wouldn’t sell, I wouldn’t stop creating this world, because the enjoyment I get from the challenge is motivation enough. But if I didn’t enjoy it, I wouldn’t do it for a million dollars.