I’m not going to have any cites available as everything I was looking at back when I gave up kibble was hardcopy. I’m sure there are cites out there, I’m just not able to spend any time looking for them at this time since I am leaving in just a few hours, plus I’m having trouble with the frigging wifi! Which means I also cannot look at your links right now, so I have no idea what any of them say.
I’m sure they are, but that cannot be a good thing.
He didn’t say “meat”, he said “chicken” or “beef”, which I believe is different.
If I could, I’d look around on this because I don’t think its right, unless the guidelines have changed significantly in 15 or so years. “Meal” used to just mean “ground up” whatever and they didn’t have to specify what parts of the animal they were grinding up. Back then, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it were still true, “meal” meant whatever was leftover after the animal was butchered for human consumption, as well as 3D animals.
Apple cider vinegar is a supplement given to raw fed dogs - it isn’t needed for kibble fed dogs.
Yeah, even if the raw wasn’t keeping my dogs in better condition, the almost no stink, significantly smaller amount of poop and the great teeth would keep me feeding raw. When I was doing board and train, any dog that was going to be here for more than a few weeks was switched to raw because I’ve lost my ability to tolerate the smell of kibble poop!
Most breeders who feed raw feed it to puppies. I’ve been weaning my litters onto raw for the past 15+ years and have had zero problems. I really don’t know why you would think there would be.
While feeding raw isn’t as easy as just scooping out some kibble, it is nothing like this. I don’t work any harder at feeding my dogs than I do at feeding myself - much less harder actually - and salmonella and E coli are no more problem with feeding raw than they are with preparing food for humans. This isn’t rocket science no matter what the dog food companies want us to believe. Dogs were well fed for decades before kibble even came along; kibble or getting a degree in nutrition isn’t needed to keep dogs healthy.
Well, my pups and those of all the other raw feeders out there have just fine immune systems. Of course, we aren’t giving them a pile of vaccinations and stressing out their immune systems either.
As have kibble fed dogs, so I am not making it up.
Oh come on! We aren’t feeding these dogs garbage. All the raw feeders I know are feeding their dogs human grade meat/bones, which is kept frozen until it is defrosted for mealtimes, and human grade veggies.
Do you honestly believe that kibble can do that? Overcooked, highly processed kibble?
Do you honestly believe that humans get their micronutrient balance correct? Particularly in each meal?
Nope, easy. You feed more bone than meat - there, done.
Actually, they have and the nutrients in raw bones are highly bioavailable.
What diets? And, has it been shown that not having any of these balanced perfectly in each meal is harmful?
There is no reason why a dog would have those problems eating raw bones, but if you were really worried about it, you can grind their food, as I do with my baby puppies.
Uh, no, that isn’t what that said.
And? From this you conclude that dogs shouldn’t eat meat, but it’s OK for them to eat dairy, wheat, eggs, soy, corn and rice?
Eh, so you are the rare vet who doesn’t push any brand of kibble, you just sound like one.
Wait, what? You prefer that people don’t feed these miracle balanced commercial foods? Your only problem with a raw diet is that it isn’t cooked, or that we dared to put it together without your help?
I don’t believe anyone said anything about Hills. I did say something about Science Diet, which has proven itself to be a terrible food for working dogs (unless its changed radically in 10-15 years).
I do hope you actually research it before then.
That’s nice. It still doesn’t mean you know everything there is to know about dogs, or even about feeding them. Note that in no way have I indicated that I know much of anything about vet medicine, nor have I said that only fools feed kibble. I know that I don’t know everything…
Why did the trainer think food had something to do with your dogs behavior?
This is another reason why I stay with raw. I had a dog with the most gawdawful hips I’d ever seen, at 10 months you could see he was favoring one side and this in a breed that usually isn’t physically affected by hip dysplasia until they start to age. That dog earned an advanced field title, advanced obedience titles and was sound until he was about 12, then just gimpy until he died of cancer at 14.
Vaccinations themselves don’t work out that way, I think we’ve had this discussions in other threads (including human threads). And also, you’re about 10+ years away from current veterinary teaching (ie, vaccinations given are fewer and farther between them).
If it has undergone an AAFCO feeding trial, like FrillyNettles mentioned below, then yes, for that particular kibble. It is an expensive process, which is why many pet foods only have the first statement that Frilly mentioned.
No, the point is that corn is always touted as the common food allergen by lay people. But when studies are done (not sponsored by pet food companies) in veterinary medicine, the guilty substances are more than just corn, and even more, corn is not the main allergen. At least when I was in vet school, not that far ago, the main allergen was chicken. This is the reason why many prescription diets for food allergic animals are based on novel proteins (kangaroo, duck, venison, etc.).
There are many more vets than don’t push any brand.
It could have, have you done research about it or done a small feeding trial to check that out?
I have a 55lb husky mix, and I feed her daily, one cup of Blue Buffalo grain-free salmon kibble, and half a can of Pedigree chopped beef canned food. She eats the canned food first, then eats the kibble later. She seems to be thriving, and gets good exercise. We walk 3 miles a day, at least five days a week. Oh, and she gets two large Milk Bones every morning after our walk.
The concept of fillers is a lie made up by the marketing department of the grain frees. If you check, you will find the cheapest to the most expensive foods have 2-3% fiber. You are not giving the SD.
Fiber ranges from 2.5-4.5 percent based on a brief google. I just checked EVO, TOFW, Canidae, Purina dog chow and Science Diet adult maintenance…lowest was EVO, highest was Purina - but it’s really not that much of a difference. In fact the Canidae grain-free had higher fiber (4%) than SD Adult Maintenance (3%.)
While I tend towards the grain-frees on the occasion I buy kibble, I do so because they mostly have more meat products and few or no imported ingredients.
But I really think that the grain-free kibbles are jumping on the “trendy/raw feeding/all grains are evil” bandwagon. They all have a pretty hefty percentage of peas and various kinds of potatoes along with carrots, apples, cranberries and so on.
A vegetarian dog lived for almost 30 years, a world record. Several years ago a vegetarian dog in Michigan made the news for living well into its 20s - can’t find the story now. A friend of mine had a little terrier mix - I knew “Chester” for years - who lived to be 23, and very healthy and spry right up to his demise. He ate whatever was cheapest at the grocery store, along with scraps and cat food.
While I personally wouldn’t feed a dog a vegetarian diet or dollar-store kibble, clearly dogs are pretty damned adaptable and can thrive and live long lives on all sorts of diets.
I couldn’t find one of the news stories about the long-lived vegetarian dog in Michigan, but did find this Whole Dog Journal article that talks about him (about 2/3 of the way down, with a photo.)
I am NOT endorsing a vegetarian diet for dogs here, really! For balance, there’s also Jerry, an Australian dogwho lived to at least 26 on a diet of kangaroo, rabbit and emu that he hunted for himself.
Bottom line: I think we give diet more power than it merits.
Yes, those were percentages, coming from a compilation of literature reviewed between 1967 to 2007 where the cause of the dog’s food allergy was definitively identified. The data compilation was done by Hill’s (makers of Science Diet), but the references to the studies they used are here:
Carlotti DN, Remy I, Prost C. Food allergy in dogs and cats. A review and report of 43 cases. Vet Dermatol 1990;1:55-62.
Chesney CJ. Food sensitivity in the dog: a quantitative study. J Sm Anim Pract 2002;43:203-207.
Elwood CM, Rutgers HC, Batt RM. Gastroscopic food sensitivity testing in 17 dogs. J Sm Anim Pract 1994;35:199-203.
Harvey RG. Food allergy and dietary intolerance in dogs: a report of 25 cases. J Sm Anim Pract 1993;34:175-179.
Ishida R, Masuda K, Sakaguchi M, et al. Antigen-specific histamine release in dogs with food hypersensitivity. J Vet Med Sci 2003;65:435-438.
Ishida R, Masuda K, Kurata K, et al. Lymphocyte blastogenic responses to inciting food allergens in dogs with food hypersensitivity. J Vet Intern Med 2004;18:25-30.
Jeffers JG, Shanley KJ, Meyer EK. Diagnostic testing of dogs for food hypersensitivity. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1991;189:245-250.
Jeffers JG, Meyer EK, Sosis EJ. Responses of dogs with food allergies to single-ingredient dietary provocation. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996;209:608-611.
Kunkle G, Horner S. Validity of skin testing for diagnosis of food allergy in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1992;200:677-680.
Mueller RS, Tsohalis J. Evaluation of serum allergen-specific IgE for the diagnosis of food adverse reactions in the dog. Vet Dermatol 1998;9:167-171.
Mueller RS, Friend S, Shipstone MA, et al. Diagnosis of canine claw disease – a prospective study of 24 dogs. Vet Dermatol 2000;11:133-141.
Nichols PR, Morris DO, Beale KM. A retrospective study of canine and feline cutaneous vasculitis. Vet Dermatol 2001;12:255-264.
Paterson S. Food hypersensitivity in 20 dogs with skin and gastrointestinal signs. J Sm Anim Pract 1995;36:529-534.
Tapp T, Griffin C, Rosenkrantz W, et al. Comparison of a commercial limited-antigen diet versus home-prepared diets in the diagnosis of canine adverse food reactions. Vet Therapeutics 2002;3:244-251.
Walton GS. Skin responses in the dog and cat to ingested allergens. Vet Rec 1967;81:709-713
Is this the kind of information you are looking for? There are only 287 dogs represented here, but as I said, the problem ingredient was clearly identified in these cases, making them a good study. In most cases, we are not so lucky due to the number of confounding factors.
Pet food companies aren’t the issue. Microbiologists and the CDC and the FDA may be. Have you not seen the multiple recalls of HUMAN food in the news due to these same pathogens? But since you don’t believe me, I’ll just let you read what the FDA has to say about raw meat diets for pets. The document does not only address the risk to both animal and human health, but some of the nutritional concerns as well:
I never claimed one was. I don’t have a degree in nutrition, either. However, a Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionist not only has finished Veterinary Medical School, but has an additional 3-4 years Residency training specific to nutrition, and generally completes a PhD as well. These are the people who you claim know so little about feeding dogs.
I am curious, do you know the difference between humoral and cell-mediated immunity? Do you know why neonates are more susceptible to E. coli and Salmonella than adults? What role do you believe vaccines do or do not play in this?
And if you believe that it has been proven that the calcium in ingested bone is bioavailable–scientifically proven and validated–please link to peer reviewed studies as I have been unable to find any evidence this is the case. This is an area that we have been unable to determine, as far as I know, but if you know something I don’t about this, I would welcome the information, truly.
I do prefer that those wishing to prepare a diet do so with the help of a veterinarian, yes, because more times than not they are not balancing the micronutrients correctly, to say nothing of the macronutrients. Do you know the proper ratio of protein to carbs to fat for each life stage? Do you know how to calculate resting and metabolizable energy requirements based on life factors, illness, etc? Do you know which amino acids are essential and how to balance them? Do you know how to balance calories without cutting nutrients or giving certain nutrients in excess, which can be just as dangerous?What methods do you use to do so?
Here’s a secret: Hills is the company that makes the brand called Science Diet.
I know I don’t know everything, either. But I do know a lot about feeding dogs, regardless of the breed. And feeding IS medicine. I am not quite sure why you believe that veterinarians should stick to altering pets and giving vaccinations, but there is a lot more to keeping your dogs healthy than that, and it does make me sad that you feel so adversarial with my profession. A good veterinarian and a good breeder can be an awesome partnership that goes a long way toward improving a line.
Dogs can and do thrive on vegetarian diets. Usually it is a case of being allergic to any and all meats, but I have also had clients who are vegetarian just refuse to feed Fido meat. Fortunately they were not vegan, so we were able to use egg protein, but I was reading of a little pug who was allergic to just about every protein except chick peas, so chick peas it was. Of the major pet food companies, Purina, Royal Canin, and Hills all have a vegetarian prescription diet for dogs. One is egg based, one is soy, and I can’t remember the 3rd at the moment. The important thing is the dog gets a bioavailable source of protein. It does not need to be meat–just bioavailable.
Yah… that is probably part of the reason dogs have evolved so successfully with human civilization throughout the world: because they are marvellously adaptable (and because people go ther extra mile when their Pug doesn’t thrive on anything but chick peas!)
I’m not sure what you are saying here - current veterinary teaching is or isn’t endorsing fewer vaccinations? Either way, I’m not sure how it applies to what I said.
AAFCO doesn’t test for the actual digestibility of the micronutrients, just whether or not they are there in the food. They can also only make educated guesses as to whether or not any given dog could actually extract any given nutrient from an ideal batch of kibble, stored and fed in an ideal manner, since there is no way to test the lack of any nutrient other than gross ongoing lack. They also only test on a few breeds, in a kennel situation, not a range of breeds in a range of living situations.
Actually, the prescription diets have those novel ingredients (not just protein) because the average owner doesn’t care to take the time to actually find out if the dog is allergic, and if so, to what. It’s easier to just buy another food. I wouldn’t be surprised if the improvement is more due to feeding a better food than getting rid of allergens.
I have never been in a clinic that did not have kibble for sale.
No. As I said above, I have had no reason to even look at kibble for over 15 years, so I am unaware of any “advances” that may have been made. OTOH, fellow breeders still do not like Science Diet.
I’m not sure what you are saying here - do you think that there is little to no difference between the amount of filler that is in the various brands? You know there is a difference between fiber and fillers, right?
Yup, dogs are extremely adaptable, and thruout the species, they live radically different lives in different places. What would work for a purse dog might end up killing my working dogs, and vice versa.
I haven’t said anything about those people, since they have not posted in this thread.
I’m not going to play that game with you. You are talking the whole population of dogs out there - I am talking about about well bred and raised dogs. Pups born to mothers with strong immune systems and whose immune systems are not trying to recover from having been given vaccinations for multiple diseases at a very young age.
I also do not tend to support those pups whose immune system is weak enough that it cannot fight off something that is in the same food that the rest of the litter is eating. Breeders have a responsibility to not coddle along a pup that will turn into a sickly adult after it has been sold to it’s loving family.
As I said earlier, all of that information is so long ago when I was researching it that it is all hard copy and I have no idea what might be available on the internet. It might help you if you search for it in raw bones…
Oh fercrissakes. Do people do this for human babies? No, they don’t, they just feed them people food. Fifteen years I’ve been feeding the way I do and I have dogs living long, highly active lives with extremely few vet bills. My dogs do not have the allergy problems, parasite problems, bad teeth and all the other things that folks generally bring their dogs into the vet for. I don’t need to analyse their diet any more than I need to do mine. We both eat a variety of foods and because their genetics are better than mine, they are in great health.
Uh huh. However, there is a huge difference between Science Diet and the prescription diets that Hills makes.
Actually, I am not adversarial with any vet, as long as they understand that they are not gods and do not know it all. When I present to a clinic with a third generation raw fed dog for a rabies shot who hasn’t needed to be wormed since puppyhood, has never had fleas, allergies or any of the other things that commonly afflict kibble fed dogs, I am not interested in hearing a lecture about how the diet I feed isn’t perfectly, scientifically adjusted when the proof that it works is right there living and breathing. I am even less interested in hearing it when that vet has their own axe to grind.
Your discussions about dog vaccinations have been brought up and discussed in other threads, that’s what I’m saying. Current teaching, though, is in endorsing fewer vaccinations after the boosters. “Giving them a pile of vaccinations and stressing their immune system” is incorrect.
At least in the way I was exposed to them, many of those are prescription diets, available only through veterinarians (particularly veterinary dermatologists). And good veterinary dermatologists like to find out what is the cause of the dog’s allergies, to better target treatment. In the case of novel diets, what you say may be partly true. Many clients do not want to undergo a complete and strict food trial, so once other causes of allergies or infection have been discussed, and general food allergy is the main differential, they may opt for some prescription diet instead of finding out the specific allergen.
But again, they work because none of the main food allergens (that were mentioned by FrillyNettle) are present. You can keep thinking that corn is the main allergen, if you wish, despite different veterinarians telling you that is not the case and providing cites.
But again, that does not mean that’s the only thing they endorse, or that they want all their clients to buy that food.
And see, this is where people that have been in any sort of career/profession get (including old veterinarians and other professions). They’ve been doing what they’re doing for so long, they think what they do works, and they don’t care about looking into new things, or re-visiting things, or researching stuff again.
I don’t know FrillyNettles, but yesterday I tried, at work, using Pubmed. Keep in mind, that search engine brings you stuff from the 40s that you have to go to the dark corners of a library to dust off and check out. And nope, I couldn’t find good articles about it. Or any, for that matter, that had to deal with bones, dogs, and bioavailability.
OTOH, even if you cannot access the information, Pubmed can give you the reference, so maybe you can use it to find the exact references both Frilly and I are having trouble finding.
Buddy the beagle eats what we give him. And then he forages for whatever else he can find because he has an insatiable appetite. He’s been caught red-handed eating baby rabbits, moldy meat, dirty diapers, unwashed underwear, horse shit, and opossum corpses. Currently he’s on Kirkland reduced fat dry kibble because the old guy needs to lose a few pounds.
They’re dogs. Feed them what you can afford to feed them, keep them warm and dry, walk them, and I guarantee you that they’ll be happier than humans who tend to over-think things such as “What should I feed my dog?”
Marketing people do a great job of convincing people that THEIR way is best. Consider their agenda before spending a fortune on their new and different approach.
Don’t start feeding the dog table scraps. I speaketh from experience.
My background is in the paint and plastic industry. There we commonly added fillers, such as calcium carbonate, that did little except take up space. That is why cheap paint doesn’t hide, it has too much calcium carbonate and not enough titanium dioxide.
Would you be so good as to point out the indigestible fillers in the Pro Plan I feed:
Fron the Pro Plan site:
Chicken, wholegrain wheat, poultry meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, wholegrain yellow corn, brewers rice, beef and/or lamb tallow preserved with mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E), oats, soybean meal, wheat by-product, dried yeast, salt, vitamin A supplement, whole egg, fish meal, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, zinc sulphate, iron sulphate, antioxidant, niacin, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), vitamin D3 supplement, manganous oxide, pantothenic acid, copper sulphate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulphate complex (source of vitamin K activity), potassium iodide, natural flavours, sodium selenite, biotin.
Some cites proving dogs can’t digest them no matter how processed would be nice too.
I have a good idea of how the volume of 12% moisture food I dish out compares to the likely far higher moisture content stools I clean up. It is more consistent to the claimed 3% fiber than your claims of high levels of fillers.
I can’t find the article online right now, but a number of years ago in a piece on dog foods (I believe in The New Yorker, but I could be wrong), a pet food technologist explained that a big concern was *not *to use much in the way of indigestible fillers, because a pet dog had to be able to go all day cooped up at home without needing to be walked. If there were too many fillers and the dog crapped indoors before the owner got home from work, the owner would very quickly change dog foods.
I’m not sure what you are saying here - current veterinary teaching is or isn’t endorsing fewer vaccinations? Either way, I’m not sure how it applies to what I said.