I find it amusing that indigestible ingedients in dog food are bad, but indigestible dietary fiber in human food is the pinnacle of healthy eating.
Uh, did you read the link? It’s about dogs. After you’ve read the report, if you believe there are errors in the information, I am willing to read alternative sources.
Oh, but you have, repeatedly. WHO do you think formulates Science Diet, if not Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists? And I am curious why you think there is such a marked difference between the quality of Science Diet Adult Maintenance and Hill’s prescription diets? The only difference is the particular balance of ingredients and the addition or subtraction of particular nutrients and ingredients based on our understanding of a particular disease state. The basics of the food quality are the same, and it is a high quality food.
I am not playing a game. I am asking if you understand immunology. You made a pretty broad claim about challenging your puppy’s with vaccinations and then stated you think that by not doing so they are at less risk of developing E. coli and Salmonella from raw feeding. My understanding of immunology does not allow me to make sense of this claim. I will ask you again, though, do you know why neonates, of all species, are more susceptible to pathogens like E. coli? And if so, do you understand why raw feeding of puppies is a risky venture? Are you irradiating your meat or something to minimize this risk?
Yes, well researched, fully balanced formulas or breast milk until they are old enough to eat table foods–and then we feed them based on guidelines that we have been taught, also based on information formulated by nutritionists. People who do not feed their children balanced meals tend to have children with rickets, but in this part of the world, it is pretty hard to fail at feeding children. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that every child, even in the USA, is fed a nutritionally balanced, calorically dense diet, and that there are no nutritional consequences. You’ve just never had to live worrying about it. However, if you think nutritional imbalance and disease is uncommon in the adult population, you are mistaken. How many people here, just on the SDMB, are anemic? Vitamin deficient? Obese? etc… Just because it is not apparent, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
You may have somehow lucked into either feeding your dogs a mostly balanced diet, or else have copied feeding them from a well balanced diet someone else formulated along the way, and you just never had to think about how it was done. But I assure you, dogs are victims of malnutrition every single day and the consequences of improper nutrition are dire. Feeding them a commercial diet at the very least insures they are meeting minimum requirements. They may not achieve optimum health, but they are not deficient in any essential way.Feeding them a home formulated diet is much trickier. Dogs are completely dependent on what WE give them.In the wild, they could go find what they need, and perhaps they would crave and thus seek out what the body needs. But waiting for you to toss the right nutrients puts them in a rather unique position, don’t you think?
Here are some examples of improper nutrition for you:
Too much phosphorus, too little calcium –> secondary hyperparathyroidism –> leaching of calcium from bone and replacement with fibrous connective tissue. In the young dog, this leads to an overdevelopment of the maxilla, or "big head syndrome (also seen in horses). In older dogs, it leads to “rubber puppy”:
http://www.kosvi.com/courses/vpat5215_1/vpat5230/uremia/images/F09986.jpg
http://i.quizlet.net/i/JcMO2Zn-kaJwMRCTFYWQxQ_m.jpg
Zinc deficiency can lead to hair loss and crusting of the skin, particularly in huskies:
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/data/articlestandard//dvm/212005/162405/i1.jpg
Vitamin E deficiency can cause retinal degeneration and blindness in young dogs.
In older dogs with potential, age related renal disease, I would be concerned about getting potassium and phosphorus exactly right.
Do you know what trace element you might have to be very concerned about if you own a Bedlington Terrier or a Doberman? Or in some cases a Labrador Retriever? Do you know what hepatic encephalopathy looks like and which breeds are prone to liver shunts? What would this mean in terms of diet?
Essential fatty acids, such as linoleic can often be deficient in a heavy meat diet, if you are not using fish. Dogs are not very efficient at converting flax oil and do much better on fish oil. Many people mistakenly think flax is a good option for dogs.
Those are just a few of the more common ones, and I could do this all day long. The fact is, nutritional diseases are COMMON when people think they can just make up a diet.
Congratulations on raising healthy dogs. Truly. I assume you are getting them screened via fecals at least twice a year for internal parasites? It sounds like you need to find a veterinarian who is willing to work with you, but perhaps you could help the process by also being willing to do annual blood screens and parasite checks to reassure your vet that your dogs are indeed doing well. Remember, one year is a long time in a dog’s life. Being able to catch changes in liver and kidney function, etc. before major problems develop is very important. One of the things we do know is that raw fed dogs tend to have higher than average blood urea nitrogen. We do not yet know if this actually corresponds to any significant difference in kidney function, but knowing what your dogs’ baseline creatinine is would probably be a good idea. At the very least, I would recommend you know their urine specific gravity–something you could learn to check yourself, along with urine protein.
It seems like you care a lot about the health of your dogs. If you want to be sure they are getting a balanced raw diet, this is a good source. Monica is one of the few who I think is very good at balancing a diet around raw meaty bones: http://www.monicasegal.com/
And btw, I have not met any vets yet who believe they are gods. I have met a few arrogant pricks, but that is true in all walks of life. If you approach a veterinarian with your hackles up, expecting to be met with resistance, you likely will get off to a bad start. If you instead go in and say you understand they may have some concerns about your unconventional feeding, and you will be happy to provide fecal samples and follow recommendations for annual bloodwork and examinations for health checks, perhaps adding some nutritional supplementation as warranted given a particular dog’s health needs, I think you will find yourself more in partnership and less in conflict.
I ask forgiveness of the grammar gods for my apostrophe abuse up there. I meant to type “puppies” and not “puppy’s”…I blame the lack of coffee.
I may not have raised litters, like curlcoat, but over 12 years I’ve fed seven of my own dogs raw, one from puppyhood to death (Rottweiler, bone cancer at nine.) Also foster dogs get at least some raw, because I feel sorry for them only eating dry kibble. 
My “canary in a coal mine” dog, the first, was an 11-12-year-old GSD mix. She’d had stinky breath and bad teeth her entire life - I did a dental cleaning annually - and seriously, on raw her teeth got white and her breath stopped stinking. When I took her for a vet check my vet thought I’d cheated on him and had her dental done elsewhere. Also around that time I was told she had compromised kidney function and I should put her on low-protein k/d food. I researched and finally decided to keep her on raw, eating slightly lower-protein meats and lots of green tripe. She lived another five years or so and her blood screens were normal, and I let her go when we could no longer manage the pain from DJD.
Anyway - I think that the dangers of raw food are overstated. I know a LOT of people who feed raw and nothing else, and have never had adverse reactions due to it that anyone knows of. This includes Schutzhund, SAR, agility and show people, my friend whose 15-year old Chow hasn’t eaten anything else in over ten years, a Doberman friend, friends with 13 Malamutes who are very active in sledding and weight pull, someone who raises and shows Great Danes and an OEM, a 13-year old Border collie who is still doing agility, someone who just lost her 13-year-old Borzoi, raw-fed since birth (and never vaccinated - 13 is very old for a Borzoi), another Malamute friend who shows and has produced three litters over the years, the breeder of my current Rottweiler, who has a 13-year old raw-fed male…
I also know someone who lost a Bedlington terrier - also an agility dog who showed at Westminster - when she unwittingly fed him melamine-tainted moist food in 2007. He was off his food because she had a bitch in heat, so she got the pouches to entice him. Instead, she poisoned him. I know of nobody who feeds raw who has killed their dog with what they feed.
I get baseline blood screens done on young dogs, definitely before any surgical procedure. And annual screens done on middle-aged and older dogs. It’s always been in normal ranges; my vet and I both understand that BUN might be on the high end but it’s not happened with any of mine. I’ve never done routine urine tests (except on the diabetic blind dog I fostered for 10 months - and no, he did not eat raw) unless there appears to be a problem - is this a good idea, and why?
I get fecals done if necessary - for boarding, training and so on. In over 30 years of owning dogs, I’ve never had an adult dog with intestinal parasites no matter what I was feeding them. Except for my JRTx who kills and eats mice under the deck - she’s had tapes twice. Yuck. Mind you the dogs get HeartGard so they’re getting pyrantel about once a month for most of the year. (I know some raw/holistic people are anti-vaccinations and preventatives but I’m not one of them.)
As to balance: Most people I know do their best to replicate “whole” animals. Either by feeding actual whole animals in parts or whole - goat, rabbit, chickens, game hens, duck, etc. Or by feeding whole/ground product, where basically whole animals are dropped into industrial grinders so what you get in whole, ground-up animals in “natural” proportion.
Personally I do a bit of both. Some ground mixes, goat chunks, rabbits, chickens, tripe, pork riblets, along with cheap weird meats from the ghetto supermarket: turkey tails, pig ears and tails, chitlins and tripe and odd organs. Also eggs from a neighbor who has chickens.
Also most people who educate themselves about feeding this way understand the importance of adding fish oil and vitamin E to the diet, at the very least. My Doberman friend does tons of supplements. The Malamute folks do kelp, for the iodine. Few people I know feed vegetables - I do occasionally. Mostly cooked greens with sweet potato.
Food isn’t always medicine. What got me into this was the loss of a great Rottweiler to osteosarcoma. While I was researching breeders to find a new puppy in 1998, I ran into several who were doing raw, in part based on a paper published by Dr Oglivy at Colorado state, which tied heavy grain consumption to certain cancers. I couldn’t find the original paper, but here’s a summary. I admit that may be slightly woo to a trained medical eye but it made sense at the time. Osteo is very common in Rottweilers, and a noted Rottweiler person mentored me when I eventually got my new puppy.
But: Of the three Rottweilers I have lost to bone cancer, the one that was fed kibble and vaccinated annually (when I thought that was the right thing to do) outlived the two minimally-vaccinated, raw-fed Rottweilers by about a year. So, while I think this is a very good diet, the dogs love it and are in great condition, it’s not a guarantee of anything. No diet is.
I think that sounds very reasonable. Urine tests are only needed if your dogs develop signs of urinary tract infections or are drinking excessively or if the annual blood screens show signs of possible early kidney disease. I only suggested curlcoat screen urine if she/he does not wish to do blood screening (which would be superior). And I assume you chose not to feed the diabetic dog raw due to the immunosuppression of diabetes? Or was there another reason?
Are they on anything for whips? I might suggest Interceptor for more complete coverage, but otherwise, they probably don’t need fecals unless they break with diarrhea. You’re going to see tapes when they get them. I made the assumption (perhaps unfairly) that curlcoat was not using any preventatives for parasites.
I am glad to hear of it being done in an educated manner by someone who is taking the care to balance the nutrients. That makes a lot of difference. Unfortunately, many people do believe they can just feed nothing but meat and bones and this leads to serious health consequences. I’ve seen it. It is not only ugly, it’s painful.
The diabetic dog was well-controlled with insulin by the time I fostered him. Everything I read indicated a high-fiber, consistent diet was best, so I kept him on Solid Gold kibble. The one time I gave him something else (a single chicken gizzard) he had explody-butt dire rear. As long as he was stable and doing well on a consistent regimen, that’s what I did.
Thanks for the info on urine tests - I had never heard that this was a diagnostic tool, was why I asked. I can’t remember the last time I suspected a UTI in olne of my dogs - 6, 7 years ago maybe?
Nope. Doesn’t pyrantel handle whips? I assumed it did.
No diarrhea, weight loss or anything else so I don’t worry.
Actually if it was easier to find, I’d prefer giving original HeartGard without the pyrantel since I don’t think healthy adult dogs really need to be wormed on a monthly basis.
Can you give an example, like case studies or something documentable, or a cite?
I read vague references and warnings like this a lot, but have yet to see any hard data to back them up. Yes dogs and cats CAN theoretically get food-borne illnesses from raw meat, developmental, joint or organ disease, choke on bones or get impactions - but how often DO they? In real life?
The dog people I know are pretty savvy generally, so I may have missed a whole population of folks who feed raw who are inflicting ugly and painful serious health consequences on their dogs. As I said, in decades of dog ownership and being involved with dog people, the only dog I have known personally to die from something directly diet-related died when fed an AAFCO-approved, commercial food that had been sealed in a sterile (LOL) pouch. I think it was Purina Mighty Dog, and this was during the big pet food recall in 2007. This dog got sick and later died before Menu Foods et al had come clean with their knowledge of tainted ingredients - had they been honest and alerted consumers right from the start this dog probably would have lived. But as it stood, the vets were baffled and after stabilizing him the first time and assuming he’d somehow gotten into rat poison, he was sent home to eat more of the poisoned food that ended up killing him.
I will continue feeding Pro Plan. I do hope Frilly posts some more good cites especially with links available to everybody.
I’m not Frilly, and I’m not at work, but I found a couple of recent references that can serve, although I can only access the abstracts…
Evaluation of the risks of shedding Salmonellae and other potential pathogens by therapy dogs fed raw diets in Ontario and Alberta. Lefebvre SL, Reid-Smith R, Boerlin P, Weese JS. Zoonoses Public Health. 2008 Oct;55(8-10):470-80
Evaluation of pet-related management factors and the risk of Salmonella spp. carriage in pet dogs from volunteer households in Ontario (2005-2006). Leonard EK, Pearl DL, Finley RL, Janecko N, Peregrine AS, Reid-Smith RJ, Weese JS. Zoonoses Public Health. 2011 Mar;58(2):140-9. doi: 10.1111/j.1863-2378.2009.01320.x.
There are older references, but I decided to stick with more recent articles.
This one is a case report on nutritional deficiencies in dogs:
Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef. Taylor MB, Geiger DA, Saker KE, Larson MM. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Apr 15;234(8):1041-8.
I think part of what FrillyNettles keeps saying and it keeps getting lost is that, while raw food based diet can be nutritionally adequate, and can be used in dogs, too many people don’t take the precautions or look closely at what they’re doing, and can end up causing more problems than solving them. Giving a blanket statement of “just follow a raw food diet” may not be the best advice for many people.
I looked up your two pathogen-related links: as expected, they highlighted what “might” happen theoretically. Which is all fine and good - but where is the evidence of actual harm?
But no evidence of harm done, right? Anything?
And the one-puppy report is not a “report on the nutritional defiencies of dogs” (plural), it is a report of ONE malnourished puppy that was fed an incorrect diet by ONE ignorant owner. That is not data, that is an anecdote and therefore useless.
Nothing convincing, so far. Is this the best you’ve got, really?
I am not trying to be a blind advocate for raw diets, I believe this is clear based on my posts in this thread. I would sincerely welcome some *real *evidence that properly-done raw diets are detrimental to the health and development of dogs, but so far crickets and nothing.
Actually in my world, just about everyone - no scratch that, everyone - did some basic research, then started feeding their dogs what nature intended.
It truly is not that difficult or complex. I’m happy that you acknowledge that is “can be nutritionally adequate” but the next part of your statement - that “too many people don’t take the precautions or look closely at what they’re doing” is vague and unsupported and not scientifically valid. Again: Got cites and real data to back up that claim?
You haven’t responded to the anecdotes about healthy, long-lived dogs who managed to hit Guiness World Record ages on non-kibble diets. Nor have you responded to the fact that countless dogs and cats died because they were fed AAFCO-approved poisoned food.
I am not trying to be an adversarial asshole and I adore vets on the whole, but seriously, as veterinary professionals with access to PubMed, I’d expect some more convincing evidence from you guys. So far you are not delivering.
Again: real data and real cites demonstrating that feeding a raw diet to dogs (or cats or ferrets or tropical fish or snakes) is harmful, please.
*As an aside - do you think that feeding worms, goldfish and beef heart to carnivorous fish is dangerous? Why or why not? Are outdoor barn cats that eat small rodents in dire danger? Why or why not Should ferrets and cats - obligate carnivores - eat commercial dry pellets, or are their lives in jeopardy by feeding them grain-based pellets? How about a raptor, fox or raccoon? I have a good friend who is a DNR-certified wildlife rehabilitator and I assure you she doesn’t give the animals dry pellets, she gives them what nature intended them to eat. Is she irresponsible? Or should she be giving them grain-based dry pellets instead of what they would more naturally eat?
We feed our two mixed breed dogs Nature’s Domain Salmon and Sweet Potato Formula because both of them have soy sensitivities that result in skin flare-ups. Fish formulas seem to work best for them, and the grain-free formulas tend to be the easiest to find fish-based dog food. We’ve fed Blue Buffalo, Naturally Wild and Nutro before, but this seems to get the best reaction for them while balancing cost vs. quality.
[QUOTE=Ingredients]
Salmon meal, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes, canola oil, pea protein, potato fiber, natural flavor, flaxseed, ocean fish meal, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.
[/QUOTE]
The best with limited time, not all my work resources, and restricting my cites to most recent ones. 
You asked for a case report, which I presented, not anecdote, and not useless.
Nutritional deficiencies are common enough in veterinary medicine, and I’m giving you examples of those. I am, though having trouble coming up with a prevalence/incidence study of nutritional deficiencies in raw-fed dogs, which seems is what you want.
Unusual case of osteopenia associated with nutritional calcium and vitamin D deficiency in an adult dog. de Fornel-Thibaud P, Blanchard G, Escoffier-Chateau L, Segond S, Guetta F, Begon D, Delisle F, Rosenberg D.
Dietary-related skeletal changes in a Shetland sheepdog puppy.
McMillan CJ, Griffon DJ, Marks SL, Mauldin GE.
Diet and Skin Disease in Dogs and Cats was a review of skin diseases and nutritional deficiencies. I hope the link works.
Nutrition and osteochondrosis.
Richardson DC, Zentek J.
Rickets in a litter of racing greyhounds.
Malik R, Laing C, Davis PE, Allan GS, Wigney DI.
Thiamin deficiency in cats and dogs associated with feeding meat preserved with sulphur dioxide. Studdert VP, Labuc RH.
Nutrition and bone disease in the dog and cat.
Bennett D.
And the following are from the journal Veterinary Pathology:
Polioencephalomalacia in Dogs with Thiamine Deficiency
Morphological Findings in Young Dogs Chornically Fed a Diet Containing Excess Calcium
And I’m giving up. Most of the articles are old, older than my age, but it has been established and repeated and confirmed again and again, that nutritional deficiencies can and do occur with improper diets.
Because we’re saying that properly-done raw diets are not detrimental. We’re saying a significant number of people will put their dog’s health in jeopardy because they won’t follow a properly-done raw diet. For them, a commercial dog food is the best option.
But we don’t live in such a world, and FrillyNettle and I would like to not see animals harmed by nutritional problems. She gets to see them while they’re still alive and may intervene, I get the ones who didn’t make it.
I’m giving you reports (and reviews) from various established veterinary sources, not anecdote, as you suggested, but again, not the incidence/prevalence studies that you seek.
Look, it is well known across several species, including dogs, that an unbalance in calcium and phosphorus causes skeletal disorders such as secondary hyperparathyroidism. Two main things can lead to this, improper nutrition (too high phosphorus) and renal disease. It is well known that animals (horses and dogs) fed improper, unbalanced diets can get that skewed ratio. It is not very common now precisely because of both commercial food diets and proper raw food feeding, but it is still a problem encountered and an advice to give to those who want to try home diets.
It is also known, and established in in both veterinary dermatology and pathology textbooks, that zinc deficiencies due to improper nutrition can and do occur (in fact, one “outbreak” was actually traced to a commercial dog food formulation).
Again, it has also been known and studied in several species that various vitamins and trace metals can cause health problems.
I have nothing to say about the anecdotes because I have no problem with properly formulated raw-food diets. I’ll talk about the other things in another post.
[quote=“chiroptera, post:49, topic:598805”]
I looked up your two pathogen-related links: as expected, they highlighted what “might” happen theoretically. Which is all fine and good - but where is the evidence of actual harm?
But no evidence of harm done, right? Anything?
/QUOTE]
If you want to risk increased shedding of pathogens in your house fine.
[quote=“chiroptera, post:49, topic:598805”]
I Nor have you responded to the fact that countless dogs and cats died because they were fed AAFCO-approved poisoned food.
/QUOTE]
AAFCO does not approve melamine as a dog food additive. If the foods had been tested by AAFCO methods, the problem would have turned up.
The AAFCO had nothing to do with this. The problem relied with the companies that sold tainted incorrect feed. For raw materials to make the different diets, they needed an incredient with a certain percentage of protein. In order to increase the protein content of the produt cheaply, the Chinese company tainted it with melamine (and other by-products), thereby increasing the protein. This made their material “better” for the manufacturing company, the combination of high protein and low cost.
Melamine, by itself, is fairly non-toxic, and most animals are resistant to it. What happened was the combination of both melamine and its by-products in the kidney created the non-soluble crystals and were also toxic to renal tubules.
The company that had tainted the product with melamine didn’t know it would cause that, since it seems taining with melamine to increase the protein percentages in crude analysis studies is a common thing to do (by unscrupulous companies) in that part of the world. A similar outbreak a couple of years before, in Thailand, was later traced to the same combination of melamine and by products. Similarly, pigs have died from a similar contamination. And lastly, tainting with melamine was also found in a semi-recent outbreak of contaminated baby formula in China (babies died).
Again, AAFCO was not the problem, nor the diets themselves were the problem. The problem was the tainted food that got into the production chain, which, before this happened, it was not known it would cause such toxicity.
And yes, a dog that was being fed raw food, at that time, would’ve been safe from that particular incident.
But, like I said, tainting with melamine has even been found in human products, and tainting with other contaminants and bacteria is certainly common in human food (food and product recalls).
Alrighty then. In my world, I see sick dogs and cats die from E. coli, Salmonella, Clostridium, etc. Septicemic puppies and kittens and sometimes adults from hemorraghic gastroenteritis is not a fun thing to deal with. I see metabolic bone disease and secondary hyperparathyroidism. You may hang with conscientious people who try to get the diet right, but I assure you, there are many, many who don’t. But you don’t want antecdotes, so here you go (and you did say any species):
Post treatment skeletal mineral accretion in malnourished, growing animals
J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). December 2005;89(11-12):429.
J W Bartges1; C A Kirk; E A Klaphake
Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN, USA.
Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association
Journal site on the Web
American Animal Hospital Association (Published since 1968)
eISSN: 1547-3317; pISSN: 0587-2871; uISSN: 0587-2781; Bimonthly
Volume 39 | Issue 6 (2003 Nov-Dec)
(partial) ABSTRACT:
Cases of rickets and other conditions of malnutrition in growing animals have been uncommon in recent years, but the popularity of raw and homemade diets in companion and exotic animals have resulted in an increased number of cases presented to veterinary clinics and teaching hospitals. Growing animals, including four puppies, two cougars, two jaguars and one serval, fed non-commercial diets were diagnosed radiographically with multiple fractures and/or folding fractures. All animals were undersized, exhibited lameness of varying degrees, or were beginning to exhibit neurological signs. A review of diets indicated that they were either imbalanced in calcium : phosphorus or were deficient in calcium…
Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism in two cats: evaluation of bone mineral density with dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry and computed tomography.
Vet Comp Orthop Traumatol. 2010;23(1):56-61. M Dimopoulou; J Kirpensteijn; D H Nielsen; L Buelund; M S HansenDepartment of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark.
Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. April 2009;234(8):1041-8.
Mark B Taylor; David A Geiger; Korinn E Saker; Martha M Larson
Banfield, The Pet Hospital, Christiansburg, VA 24060, USA.
Hypervitaminosis A in the cat: a case report and review of the literature
J Feline Med Surg. December 2005;7(6):363-8. 37 Refs
Zoe S Polizopoulou; George Kazakos; Michael N Patsikas; Nikolaos Roubies
Laboratory of Clinical Diagnosis and Clinical Pathology, School of Veterinary Medicine, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Stavrou Voutyra Street 11, Thessaloniki 546 27, Greece.
Bilateral carpal valgus deformity in hand-reared cheetah cubs (Acinonyx jubatus).
Zoo Biol. March 2011;30(2):199-204.
Katherine M Bell1; Malan van Zyl; Claudia E Ugarte; Angela Hartman
Cheetah Outreach, Cape Town, South Africa.
Nutritional metabolic bone disease in juvenile veiled chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) and its prevention. J Nutr. November 2010;140(11):1923-31.
Stefan Hoby; Christian Wenker; Nadia Robert; Thomas Jermann; Sonja Hartnack; Helmut Segner; Claude-P Aebischer; Annette Liesegang
Center for Fish and Wildlife Health, Institute of Animal Pathology, Vetsuisse Faculty, University of Berne, Berne 3012, Switzerland.
A fresh look at metabolic bone diseases in reptiles and amphibians.
Vet Clin North Am Exot Anim Pract. September 2010;13(3):375-92.
Eric Klaphake Animal Medical Center, 216 North 8th Avenue, Bozeman, MT 59715, USA.
Osteoporosis in goats associated with phosphorus and calcium deficiency.
Vet Rec. February 2009;164(7):211-3.
U Braun; S Ohlerth; A Liesegang; E Forster; U Gorber; A Tschuor; G Bearth; J Muntwyler; D Wiederkehr; P Ossent Department of Farm Animals, University of Zurich, Winterthurerstrasse 260, CH-8057 Zurich, Switzerland.
Proving “natural” is not always best, horses often get laminitis on pasture:
Endocrinopathic laminitis: reducing the risk through diet and exercise.
Vet Clin North Am Equine Pract. August 2010;26(2):371-8.
Nicola J Menzies-Gow Department of Veterinary Clinical Science, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead Lane, North Mymms, Hertfordshire, UK.
Pasture-associated laminitis.
Vet Clin North Am Equine Pract. April 2009;25(1):39-50, v-vi.
Raymond J Geor Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, Veterinary Medical Center, College of Veterinary Medicine, Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48824, USA.
And now on to the pathogenicity:
[A case of the myelitis due to Toxocara canis infection complicated with cervical spondylosis]
Language: Japanese
No Shinkei Geka. November 2006;34(11):1149-54.
Yutaka Mitsuhashi; Kentarou Naitou; Shigeru Yamauchi; Hirotsune Naruse; Yoshimi Matsuoka; Fukumi Nakamura-Uchiyama; Kenji Hiromatsu
Department of Neurosurgery, Izumi Municipal Hospital, Osaka, Japan.
Septicemic salmonellosis in two cats fed a raw-meat diet
J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 2003 Nov-Dec;39(6):538-42.
Shane L Stiver; Kendall S Frazier; Michael J Mauel; Eloise L Styer
Veterinary Diagnostic and Investigational Laboratory, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, P.O. Box 1389, 43 Brighton Road, Tifton, Georgia 31794.
Article Abstract
Salmonella gastroenteritis and septicemia were diagnosed in two cats presented for necropsy. Both cats resided in the same household and were fed a home-prepared, raw meat-based diet. Salmonella was isolated from multiple organs in both cats and from samples of raw beef incorporated into the diet fed to one of the cats. Subtyping of the bacterial isolates yielded Salmonella newport from one cat and from the diet it had been fed. This report provides evidence that the practice of feeding raw meat-based diets to domestic cats may result in clinical salmonellosis.
Evaluation of the risks of shedding Salmonellae and other potential pathogens by therapy dogs fed raw diets in Ontario and Alberta.
Lefebvre SL, Reid-Smith R, Boerlin P, Weese JS. Zoonoses Public Health. 2008 Oct;55(8-10):470-80.
Abstract
Dogs that participate in animal-assisted interventions (AAIs), often called ‘therapy dogs’, commonly interact with humans whose immune systems are not functioning optimally. The advisability of feeding raw meat (including poultry) to these animals remains a highly contentious issue, in spite of increasing evidence that raw meat is frequently contaminated with Salmonella. We set out to determine if consuming raw meat influences the risk of therapy dogs shedding Salmonella and other pathogens. Two hundred healthy therapy dogs from Ontario and Alberta were enrolled. Between May 2005 and November 2006, fecal specimens were collected from each dog every 2 months for 1 year, along with a log of places visited, antimicrobial use within the home, dog health status and diet. Specimens were cultured for Salmonella, methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), vancomycin-resistant enterococci (VRE), extended-spectrum cephalosporinase (ESC) Escherichia coli and Clostridium difficile. Forty (20%) of the dogs were reported to have been fed raw meat at some point during the year. The incidence rate of Salmonella shedding in the raw meat-fed dogs was 0.61 cases/dog-year, compared with 0.08 cases/dog-year in dogs that were not fed raw meat (P<0.001). Controlling for therapy dog group, the repeated measures, and pig ear consumption and diarrhoea in the 2 months prior to specimen submission, dogs that consumed raw meat were significantly more likely to test positive for Salmonella at least once during the year than dogs that did not eat raw meat [odds ratio (OR) 22.7; 95% confidence interval (CI) 3.1-58.8; P<0.001].** Specific Salmonella serovars were more common among dogs that consumed raw meat versus those that did not include S. Typhimurium, S. Heidelberg and S. Kentucky. Raw meat consumption was also significantly associated with shedding ESC E. coli** (OR 17.2; 95% CI 9.4-32.3). No associations between C. difficile, MRSA or VRE and consumption of raw meat were detected. We recommend that dogs fed raw meat should be excluded from AAI programmes, particularly when the programmes involve interaction with humans at high risk of infection or adverse sequelae attributable to infection. Furthermore, although AAI dogs may not be representative of the general population of dogs, we also recommend that feeding of raw meat to dogs is to be avoided in homes where immunocompromised people live.
Evaluation of Pet-Related Management Factors and the Risk of Salmonella spp. Carriage in Pet Dogs from Volunteer Households in Ontario (2005-2006).
Leonard EK, Pearl DL, Finley RL, Janecko N, Peregrine AS, Reid-Smith RJ, Weese JS. Zoonoses Public Health. 2010 Feb 16. [Epub ahead of print]
Abstract
Summary The purpose of this study was to determine pet-related management factors that may be associated with the presence of Salmonella spp. in feces of pet dogs from volunteer households. From October 2005 until May 2006, 138 dogs from 84 households in Ontario were recruited to participate in a cross-sectional study. Five consecutive daily fecal samples were collected from each dog and enrichment culture for Salmonella spp. was performed. A higher than expected number of the dogs (23.2%; 32/138) had at least one fecal sample positive for Salmonella, and 25% (21/84) of the households had at least one dog shedding Salmonella. Twelve serotypes of Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica were identified, with the predominant serotypes being Typhimurium (33.3%; 13/39), Kentucky (15.4%; 6/39), Brandenburg (15.4%; 6/39) and Heidelberg (12.8%; 5/39). Univariable logistic regression models were created with a random effect for household to account for clustering. Statistically significant risk factors for a dog testing positive included having contact with livestock, receiving a probiotic in the previous 30 days, feeding a commercial or homemade raw food diet, feeding raw meat and eggs, feeding a homemade cooked diet, and having more than one dog in the household. In two-variable models that controlled for feeding raw food, the non-dietary variables were no longer statistically significant. These results highlight the potential public health risk of including raw animal products in canine diets.
The risk of salmonellae shedding by dogs fed Salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diets.
Finley R, Ribble C, Aramini J, Vandermeer M, Popa M, Litman M, Reid-Smith R. Can Vet J. 2007 Jan;48(1):69-75.
Abstract
Twenty-eight research dogs were enrolled to determine the prevalence of salmonellae shedding after consumption of 1 Salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diet meal. Sixteen dogs were exposed to Salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diets and 12 to Salmonella-free commercial raw food diets. Seven of the exposed dogs shed salmonellae 1-7 days after consumption of Salmonella-contaminated raw food diets. None of the dogs fed Salmonella-free diets shed salmonellae. No clinical signs were observed in either group. Five of the 7 dogs shed the same serotypes as those recovered from food samples used for feeding. Results showed the same serotypes and antimicrobial resistance pattern in 2 of the 7 shedders. Dogs fed Salmonella-contaminated raw food diets can shed salmonellae and may, therefore, be a source of environmental contamination potentially leading to human or animal illness.
Cats as a risk for transmission of antimicrobial drug-resistant Salmonella.
Van Immerseel F, Pasmans F, De Buck J, Rychlik I, Hradecka H, Collard JM, Wildemauwe C, Heyndrickx M, Ducatelle R, Haesebrouck F. Emerg Infect Dis. 2004 Dec;10(12):2169-74.
Abstract
To determine whether cats were a risk for transmission of Salmonella to humans, we evaluated the excretion of Salmonella by pet cats. Rectal-swab specimens were taken from 278 healthy house cats, from 58 cats that died of disease, and from 35 group-housed cats. Group-housed cats were kept in one room with three cat trays and a common water and feed tray. Eighteen (51.4%) of 35 group-housed cats, 5 (8.6%) of 58 diseased cats (5/58), and 1 (0.36%) of 278 healthy house cats excreted Salmonella. Salmonella isolates were of serotypes Typhimurium, Enteritidis, Bovismorbificans and 4:i:-. Acquired antimicrobial resistance was found in serotype Typhimurium (resistance to ampicillin, chloramphenicol, and tetracycline; to ampicillin; and to chloramphenicol) and 4:i:- strains (resistance to ampicillin, chloramphenicol, sulfonamides, trimethoprim, and sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim). Cats that excrete Salmonella can pose a public health hazard to people who are highly susceptible to Salmonella, such as children, the elderly, and immunocompromised persons.
Zoonoses and public health.
Journal site on the Web
Blackwell Verlag (Published since 2007)
eISSN: 1863-2378; pISSN: 1863-1959; Ten no. a year
Volume 55 | Issue 8-10 (October 2008)
Evaluation of the risks of shedding Salmonellae and other potential pathogens by therapy dogs fed raw diets in Ontario and Alberta.
Zoonoses Public Health. October 2008;55(8-10):470-80.
S L Lefebvre1; R Reid-Smith; P Boerlin; J S Weese
1Department of Population Medicine, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON, Canada.
So what all of these studies have in common is that they show that even clinically normal raw fed dogs and cats are often shedding antibiotic resistant bacteria and could therefore be a health risk to immunocompromised individuals such as children/babies, the elderly, and puppies and kittens. The Delta therapy dog society will no longer accept raw fed animals as therapy volunteers because of this. The issue is not just whether or not YOUR pet is sick.
And here is a recent recall of a commercial raw cat food due to Salmonella.
http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm219200.htm
As to the assertion that raw feeding is somehow more “natural,” well, factory farmed meat is not a “natural” diet. These animals are raised on concentrates, mainly corn, and this plays a large role in the imbalance of omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids in the meat created. If you want your dog to be eating a “natural” diet, you’d better get busy and get out there catching some rabbits, deer, squirrel, and rodents, because cattle are in no way “natural.” Of course, feeding deer carcasses will then up the risk of parasites such as Taenia, sarcocystis and Toxoplasma, but, eh, whatever.
Not necessarily, but it would again increase your household exposure to pathogens, including parasites such as Toxoplasma gondii.
Nope, she’s not. The only times I’ve seen wildlife animals getting some sort of porridge (not even pellets) is when they’re too sick that the nutrition needs to get in there NOW, not waiting until they want to eat (which may not happen if they’re sick). Most raptors that I helped take care of were fed a diet of dead lab mice and rats.
But please note, in both the case of the barn cat and in the case of wildlife, the life expectancy of each is no more than 1-3 years outside of captivity and they have a very heavy parasite burden.
One other thread about vaccinations. And if they are currently teaching Dr Dobbs’ vaccination schedules in the schools, that’s great, but that most likely isn’t going to impact most of the vets currently practicing. So, there are still plenty of young puppies getting far too many shots very early in life, which is stressful on their immune systems.
Exactly what I said. Most of them aren’t going to go to anything other than a GP vet, so when they are told that their dog’s problems are probably due to an allergy and here try this food with unique ingredients, if it works that is as far as they are going to go with it. So there is no real way to know if the dog is better because it did have an allergy to some food, or because it is now eating a much higher quality food.
Actually, I haven’t said diddly squat about whether or not corn is a main food allergen.
Which isn’t what I said - this would go much better if you responded just to the things I actually say.
So? It ain’t broke, why would I fix it? I have never said that kibble shouldn’t be fed, my only point is that raw feeding is a legit option.
Can’t help you there - I’m still on the road and am not willing to spend hours looking for things. If you want, you can just believe that for some reason bones are not a good source of calcium for dogs, which seems counter intuitive if nothing else. I honestly don’t care either way.
Why? I’ve already said that I am not keeping up on this stuff - as far as I know, it is quite possible that all high and medium range kibbles are now filler free. I really don’t care what you feed your dog, why do you care what I think of it?
Bottom line on all of this? Kibble is fine for many if not most dogs - I have no problem with the fact that most of my puppy buyers feed it. For me, I need to feed a better food because my dogs are far more active than the average dog, and I tend to push back when some anonymous person on a message board says that feeding raw is evil or whatever. That’s it. I’m not going to debate the merits of individual kibble brands, if for no other reason than I haven’t fed nor looked at kibble in over 15 years. I happen to be one of those that won’t make statements on subjects I don’t know much about…
And that’s it on this thread for now, since I need to feed dogs and go to bed. Got another trial tomorrow.
Vaccines are not “stressful on their immune systems”. I know you’re on the road, but when you have time, please find a good cite supporting this, as my search in Pubmed turned up empty handed save from a review from the Veterinary Clinics of North America Small Animal Practices, but it’s unavailable for free. The abstract does mention that vaccine reactions are uncommon and incidence low. When I get to work I’ll point out what they mention are the side effects.
Anything but an allergy (or autoimmune disease) would be far more easier to treat. Allergies are frustrating (except flea allergies). Food allergies manifest themselves as skin disorders, really bad skin disorders that can lead to skin infections. Even when the infections are treated, the animal is still itchy and the skin still looks bad. If a novelty diet eventually leads to resolution of the skin disorders, that is very convincing that the animal had some allergy to the previous food, not just “much higher quality food”. Why? Because none of the novelty ingredient diets, which granted, may have been of better quality than what the animal was being fed before, contain the most common food allergens.
You’re right, but others keep mentioning it in every canine nutrition thread, even though veterinarians keep telling them again and again that’s not true, although corn is one of the food allergens.
It’s not the “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, it’s the “it was X way Y years ago, and I won’t look at it forever again to see if what I didn’t like/thought was wrong has changed, but I will still keep saying it was X way even if this hasn’t been the case for years”.
Nah, I was looking for specifically feeding of raw bones, but what I could get were studies on bioavailability of cooked and extruded bone meals, which is not exactly what I wanted.
To clarify, vaccines work by stimulating the immune system, it certainly puts the cells in the immune system to work. But it’s not “stressful” in the sense of causing harm. Something “stressful” actually shuts down the immune system, which is not what vaccines are designed to do. Most immune systems of most dogs are capable of handling the vaccine contents without causing overwhelming demands.
If you don’t have current information, why did you make the statement about foods being full of filler?