Dog Mauler Trial Conviction - ABOUT TIME !!!

The BBQ Pit
41

I was just thinking about the comment one of the defendants made that the woman should have run. Apart from being apallingly callous it is downright stupid.

Just about the last thing you want to do when a dog is coming after you is run (unless you are extremely close to safety). Dogs are considerably faster than a human and a person running away reinforces the dog’s prey instinct. I’ll grant that the dogs in question here didn’t seem to need to have their prey instinct reinforced any further but nonetheless running just adds to the dog’s notion that you are something to be run down and attacked. Add to that the idea that the woman should somehow manage to get to her door and unlock it with a dog that probably outweighed her trying to rip her apart and the idea of her running becomes patently ridiculous.

42

Oops. Sorry. What I meant was that if someone buys a dog because they feel it makes them look bigger or tougher, than that is the wrong reason to buy a dog.

43

Wisconsin Couple Charged With Homicide After 10-Year-Old Girl Fatally Attacked by Dogs.

44

Greetings, you have been sued.

In the District Court of The BBQ Pit

The Teeming Millions v. Leaper.

On or about the 21st day of March, 2002, Leaper deliberately mistated the Law of California by way of refering to a TV show.

Homicide in California
[ul]187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

  1. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.
    When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional
    doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite such awareness is included within the definition of malice.

  2. All murder which is perpetrated by means of a destructive
    device or explosive, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison, …, is murder of the
    first degree. ** All other kinds of murders are of the second degree**.[/ul]

This reads to me as if the “depraved indifference” concept is in California law.
If people don’t find this funny, I’m in trouble.

45

I think you’re just as worked up as the rest of us about the case in question, so I almost let this go unchallenged. But, as an “urban dog” owner, I couldn’t.

First, the energy level of a dog is correlated more to the breed than the size of the dog.

Second, high-energy dogs do not require a “lot of room to move about in” in a home. They really only require enough room to sleep and eat. What they do require is a lot of exercise, which is different.

Of course, it may appear that a high-energy dog needs a large home if your dog only ever gets exercise by running around the house. I’ll give you that.

And so, we come back around to the owners, I guess. You’ve got to be willing to spend time with any dog–they’re social animals. And you’ve got to know your own lifestyle when choosing a dog. But, apartment life doesn’t rule out big dogs. There are low-energy dogs of all sizes, and an apartment dweller with an active lifestyle can have an happy high-energy dog.

kg m²/s²

46

And I take too long to compose my replies.

47

My parents have a large German shepherd female, who is as well-behaved as any dog I’ve ever met. She generally obeys commands and follows directions fairly well, and has only shown potentially aggressive behavior when she thought a family member was in danger.

However, I do not feel comfortable leaving her alone with my son. There’s one simple reason why: She’s a dog. She’s a well-behaved, intelligent dog who isn’t aggressive, but she’s a dog. She has the potential to kill that child, even though she doesn’t mean to. There are cases of dogs picking human babies up by the scruff of the neck and shaking them to severe injury or death. There is at least one case of a dog picking up a baby by biting into the head, where its fangs pierced the fontanels of the baby’s skull. Furthermore, dogs are not predictable in their behavior. Common sense and responsibility dictate that I not leave a defenseless child alone with a dog with the potential to injure or kill. Even if the dog is otherwise harmless.

Robin

48

As regards your children and their protection I have no issue with your being cautious around your parents’ dog. It is probably wise and certainly doesn’t hurt (as long as you don’t convey to your children to fear dogs) to not leave the child alone with the dog.

That said I think it is unfair to label dogs as unpredictable. Certainly an unfamiliar dog is unpredictable to you just as a strange human is unpredictable. You wouldn’t leave your child alone with a stranger (human) and you shouldn’t leave your child alone with a strange dog. That said most dogs are extremely predictable to their owners or those who know them well (even if they are predictably unpredictable as the dogs in the OP are which is a big part of why the owners were found guilty). Presumably you know your parents’ dog quite well and it knows you.

That said dogs are territorial and German Shepherds especially so. GSDs are exceptionally loyal to their family and wonderful with children (they are very tolerant of hair/ear/tail pulling and the like). As their name suggests GSDs are herding dogs and thus protective of ‘their’ flock. I’ve seen GSDs actually herd a group of little kids into a bunch (the dog was a pet…it did that out of instinct and was really cool to watch).

The danger GSDs generally pose is to others is usually under the guise of defending their family and home. For example, a neighbor kid comes over and starts wrestling with your son. The dog can’t distinguish play fighting from real fighting and may hurt the neighbor in defense ‘its’ boy.

Knowing this about GSDs I understand and support your caution with your child around your parents’ dog. I guess it depends on how familiar the dog is with you and your son. If they see each other regularly the dog will probably come to love and protect your son as it does the rest of its family. If the dog sees the kid once a year on Christmas it is probably best to keep an eye on them.

49

Taken from a breeder’s web site for Presa Canario, the dog in question. This is what they look for in this dog.

  1. Character and Temperament
    Powerful appearance, severe expression. Especially suited to protecting, guarding duties and traditionally used for herding cattle and dog-fighting . Impetuous temperament. Low, deep bark. Obedient, reliable family protector, **unfriendly towards strangers. **

Note the bolded items. Now, lets ask ourselves, is this a good dog to have in an apartment? I would guess that these particular dogs were bred for fighting, seeing the source they came from. Or for guarding the said criminals stash. Anyway, in just a few minutes I can see that from the base description of these animals they are not fit to be around an urban area. The only argument I can think Marjorie Knoller and Robert Noel use for defense is that they are fucking idiots.

Oh, by the way, did anyone read the part in one of the linked stories about the sexual misconduct. It seemed to me they were including the dogs in that charge.

Tijuana show? :eek:

50

W-a-M, I haven’t had the baby yet. This is strictly hypothetical.

Dogs are unpredictable like people are unpredictable. I can tell you with reasonable certainty how Dixie (my mom’s GSD) will probably behave around the baby. I don’t foresee any problems. However, this does not take into consideration actions on the baby’s part (for example, if the baby pulls on Dixie’s tail), nor does it take into consideration the fact that Dixie has not had regular exposure to infants, human or otherwise. For all I know, she could hate babies. I know she’s had problems with toddlers because they stand at her eye level and haven’t yet learned how to behave around a dog. (I want to point out that Dixie has never injured a human. She generally leaves the room when a toddler comes over.)

That’s all I meant. :slight_smile:

Robin

51

She was FUCKING THE DOG?!?!? Why am I only learning about this NOW?!?!?

Goddamn NPR and their journalistic “standards.” I never hear the good stuff.

52

The California judicial system lets murderous ilk (OJ, and there are others I can’t quite recall) go free.

The California judicial system convicts the dogs’ owners?

Interesting contrasts in there, somewhere. :smiley:

53

And, therefore, support for my arguement. If they had not been “good” owners, the dog would have been allowed to continue posing a threat to others.

As far as dogs and apartments - sorry about that, but I can only speak from my own experience. I grew up with two terriers who would have been perfectly content in an apartment (and terriers are pretty high-energy) and only later in life did we get the dalmatian mix (another high-energy dog, and one who required much exercise and running around).

And I’d hate to see my parents’ female Shepherd mix try to live in an apartment, frequent walks or no. She’s constantly on the go - she tends to run around and around their pool table even after the five mile (morning or evening) walk.

So, like much else, it depends on the dog. All the large dogs I’ve known wouldn’t have handled apartment dwelling very well.

54

Good safety tip to any person living in an apartment building. You do not, in fact ( according to this sickening logic ) have any rights. You do not own a condo. You do not rent an apartment. You have ZERO RIGHTS to personal safety in communal areas such as hallways ( AHEM???), elevators and lobbies. Public sidewalks and parking areas also.

You are not safe. You are in fact invading the territory of any animal owned by another dweller in that property.

Did I get that about right? Doing what dogs do huh? That’s simply a delightful defense. " It’s what dogs do ".

Heaven help us all. It sure as heck WAS waving a loaded gun in a crowded room, except for the well-documented proof that the “room” was a hallway, and the gun was waved towards someone known to the defendants, not a total stranger.

Who- again according to the logic offered in the quote above- were invading the rightful territory of the dog, and therefore have/had zero rights to safety and privacy.

I mean, my god. How DARE they wish to walk to their own front door? Fucking humans, that’ll teach 'em, huh? Obviously you’ve made your preferences extremely clear to us all. Dogs have territory. Humans are dinner. Thanks for the heads up. Lesson learned.

You know what? If that’s what dogs do, then convicting the human couple on the charges is what humans do.

Deal with it.

:mad:

Cartooniverse

55

[Off Topic]
I don’t know if it is worth your time or not but there are classes you can take a dog to to prepare them for a new baby. You can also read stuff on this and do it yourself (from books or probably the internet although I haven’t looked). The upshot of all this training is to train the dog how to behave appropriately around a new addition to the family. The training isn’t too difficult or too involved. Whether or not you care to do it I suppose depends on how often you expect to be around your mom’s dog with your son.

One of my earlier GSDs behaved the same way Dixie does towards kids. She’d never hurt them even if they were pulling on her. Mostly she just seemed to be mildly annoyed by kids and got out of their way.
BTW:
One little piece of advice on how to break apart a dog attacking something else (i.e. not you). Grab the dog by the back legs or tail, lift its ass well off the ground (the higher the better) and walk backwards dragging the dog away from its victim. Hopefully the dog will be so upset at this new state of affairs it will let go of the victim and try to attack you. Fortunately, the dog cannot attack you in that position (both back legs off the ground) although it might seem like it could (you might need to keep moving backwards though…circles if necessary if you are out of room). The only real problem with this method is letting go but hopefully you can keep it up long enough for others to come help control the dog.

Of course this can be damaging to the dog so don’t practice it on poochy for kicks but for the attacking dog we aren’t really concerned about its welfare. Additionally, only bother trying this if you feel really compelled to stop an attacking dog (i.e. it’s mauling a child). Needless to say you are putting yourself at risk here too but in a pinch it works quite well if you pull it off (works well partly because it is easily done to even big dogs).
[/Off Topic]

56

I’m going to disagree with you here… While an apartment may not have much room, it may also have loads of room (I’ve lived in both kinds), and while some larger dogs need lots of activity, some do not. Further, any dog can be taken out and walked or excercised.

Some examples: Greyhounds need to run, but still make excellent apartment dogs, as when they’re not being run, they are quiet and take up very little space. Further, you only really need to run a greyhound two or three times a week, in addition to their daily walkings. English Bulldogs are well over 15lbs, and don’t need to be run at all. They’re also generally quiet, and only need be walked two or three times a day. Large dogs are not always vigorous dogs, and vice versa. Fer instance, I’d never try keeping a Jack Russell Terrier in an appartment (although some people do with good success), as they’re far more active than I’d care to deal with.

NYC, fer example, has very many large dogs, and they are generally not a problem. The owners have learned to take the necessary measures to keep their dogs in that enviroment. I used to meet a woman on the corner of 68th and Lexington every morning and afternoon (on my way to and from the client), walking her Great Pierenes. That’s a huge dog, and it was well behaved, in obvious good health, and quite friendly in a restrained fashion. It was an apartment dog.

Dogs and apartments are quite possible. You just have to have the right kind of dog, make the necessary lifestyle adjustments, and take the correct measures to ensure the happyness and health of all concerned.

I’ll differ here, also, although you’re mostly right on this one. I’ve seen very skilled dog owners have trouble with “bad dogs”. One in particular, as good a trainer as I’ve ever seen, had to put one of her dogs down because the dog went litteraly insane. Something went haywire in the dog’s head, and it would randomly go from loving pet to blood-hungry killer. The Vet suspected a tumor or other organic brain damage, but couldn’t find anything specific. Also, inbred dogs are often dangerously unpredictable, and if you don’t know the dog’s pedigree, you’e got only a general idea of what you’re facing.

That a muzzle would have prevented this entire scenario, that the owners had ample warning, and that despite that warning and an available simple, inexpensive fix, the owners continued to take serious risks with their own lives and the lives of people nearby; This gives me reason to feel that Murder II is appropriate.

57

My take on the “It’s what dogs do” defense.

Dogs are indeed territorial. Most domesticated dogs we see have either had their territoriality bred out of them (or at least minimized) or they are properly trained to behave themselves. The dogs in this case are both very territorial by nature and were trained (ar at the very least never discouraged) to be aggressive.

Is it the dogs fault for attacking that woman? Nope. No more than a Mountain Lion attacking a hiker in the woods is at fault. It does not equate to a human lurking in the halls and attacking passersby. The dog is simply being a dog as the mountain lion is being a mountain lion.

Does that Mountain Lion need to be hunted down and shot? Yup. Should those dogs get the gas chamber? You betcha. While it is neither animal’s ‘fault’ we as humans cannot tolerate animals that want to kill us in our midst.

For the dogs the fault lies entirely with the owners. You want to train dogs to be aggressive guard dogs? That’s fine…take responsibility for them and use them only where appropriate (e.g. guarding a flock of sheep on a mountainside or guarding a warehouse). If they must be in places where they will run into others they should be suitably restrained (muzzle at least). If you as the owner fail in your responsibilities knowing you have a dangerous animal should you be prosecuted? Hell yea.

58

Supposedly the prosecution had evidence of bestiality (yes, she was boinking the dog) as the judge even said the defendants had “blurred the boundaries between dog and human.” They chose not to present it as they had plenty of other evidence with which to convict. In fact, the prosecutors barely skimmed the surface of their relationship with their client “Cornfed”, a white aryan serving a life sentence for attempted murder who they chose to adopt (at 39 yrs. old?!?!?) a few days after the attack.

59

with an enraged dog that outweighed her by ten pounds on top of her, actively engaged in tearing her throat uot?

Apparently, Dianne Whipple’s apartment dor was open- she had managed to get one of her bags of groceries inside- when the dog attacke her.

I weigh around 145 lbs, and I doubt that I could get away from a 120lb dog and manage to push the door closed.

I agree with the verdict. Knoeller showed a callous indifference toward human life.

60

As a lifelong dog owner (my dad bred Brittanys) and a one-time professional dog trainer, I have to disagree with everyone who insists that big dogs don’t work in small apartments. I lived in a big city while I was a dog trainer, so I had plenty of urban dog owners as clients. I also had some clients a little further out who had houses and yards. Without exception, (albeit only in my anecdotal experience), the apartment dogs were better behaved, more readily trained, and seemingly happier than the yard dogs.

Here’s my theory as to why this is: Remember that in the wild, dogs and wolves spend the vast majority of their time in and around the den. They leave it to hunt or play or whatever, but return to it quite often. Pups in the wild rarely leave the den or its immediate area, and there is always and adult member of the pack to baby sit them. A dog—no matter what size—living in a studio apartment, in close proximity with it’s packmate/owner, is much closer to this ideal natural situation than a dog who spends most of his time alone outside in a big yard. As long as the urban owner takes his/her dog out several times a day to play and wander and do what dogs do, there simply isn’t a more ideal situation for a dog to live in. In my own experience, people who have yards are far more likely to simply put the dog outside and ignore it for a while, rather than interact with the dog when they’re outside.

So please, any of you who are waiting till you can afford to buy an acre and a mule before you allow yourself to get a dog, rethink it. As long as you’re willing to uphold your duties as the other half of the dog’s pack, get the biggest dog you want in the smallest apartment you can find. You’ll both be very happy.