Aha! Now we know why dogs chase their tails. Practice for when they have to attack helpful neighbours when the dogs attacking someone.
cartoon, I believe DPWhite brought up the notion that the defendants didn’t purposely sic the dogs on the victim because in our legal and moral codes, it is important what the perpetrator’s frame of mind was when the action was committed.
Walking your dog who happens to tragically attack another person is a completely different crime, both morally and legally, than the person who sics his dog on another person. Just as mowing down someone in your car is a completely different crime than running a stop sign and accidentally killing a person. The intent in the former is to kill. The intent in the latter is to drive.
cartoon:
Actually, it’s the opposite. If killing is what dogs do, then there’d be no question that the defendants were guilty of at least manslaughter. I think DP was arguing that it’s NOT what dogs normally do. And that’s a valid defense.
I should note that grabbing the back paws is preferrable to the tail as you have better control (if you can call it control) of the dog that way and it is very uncomfortable if not downright painful to the dog. Grabbing the legs also allows you to stay a bit farther away from the toothy end and the dog spins to bite you.
Of course, you’ll have to hang on for dear life as the dog will squirm violently to get loose. If you aren’t prepared for it the dog will likely break free and that would be a Bad Thing[sup]tm[/sup]. Hang on for dear life and don’t worry about hurting the dog because it WILL hurt you if it gets free.
Again, I don’t recommend doing this unless you have no other choices as you are quite liable to get attacked yourself if the dog can at all manage it. This is one of those, “I must protect my child!” sort of moves to be done in a pinch but its better than just tackling the dog and wrestling it or kicking the dog.
If it’s just two random dogs fighting it’s not worth your risk.
FTR: Four Sundays past, I got attacked by two bull mastiff dogs (aka “Cujo and his twin brother”). Luckily, I was in my vehicle at the time, said vehicle, being a Chevy Metro and thus not much bigger than a dog biscuit. I of course rolled up my window before Cujo or his twin brother could get through and did not exit the car. As soon as was practicable, I called the local police department. The cop who came out to take the report told me I “should’ve just shot the damn dogs. We (the police) wouldn’t have arrested you.” (Well, they would’ve arrested me for having a weapon on my guard post without the appropriate licenses but they’d’ve given me a pass on killing Cujo and his twin brother.) The owner of Cujo and his twin brother isn’t all that pleased either. He got a visit the very next day from the county animal control and advised how he could end up in jail if he didn’t keep his damn vicious animals non-vicious and leashed.
Also FTR: I didn’t have any weapons (unless you count my cricket kit) with me so I couldn’t have shot CAHTB.
DPWhite said
No I think they are going to prison because they are arrogant and stupid. These people knew their dogs were violent yet they took no steps to correct it. I have seen no mention that they had given the dogs obdedience training or training of any sort. There are at least 30 other documented instances of those dogs exhibiting violent behavior towards both humans and other dogs.
Not to mention the fact that they adopted a 39 year old white supremist dumb fuck and we all know those WAR assholes hate anyone who is not a white heterosexual. The fact that the victim was gay has not escaped my attention.
Not to mention that they were abusing the dogs by engaging in sexual activities with them. It was reported that Bane initiated his attack by first attempting to mate with her.
I have this awful sickening feeling that her sexuality may have played a larger role in this than has been acknowledged. I am trying with all my heart not to listen to the little voice that’s saying “well she don’t like fucking huh? Maybe it’s because she’s never had it doggy style”
This goes way beyong bad manners pal. Bad manners is belching without saying “excuse me”, not ignoring the obvious fact that these dogs were defective and should have been destoyed before they had the opportunity to tear apart with their teeth, in the doorway of her own apartment, a woman minding her own business and trying to bring in her groceries. The one thing I do agree with is that the money could perhaps be better spent by torturing these stupid sadistic assholes for the next 4, 15, or 25 years rather than just warehousing them.
Also not to mention that they were raising the damn dogs to be attack dogs/guard dogs for illegal activities.
Also not to mention that raising the damn dogs for prisoners was itself illegal.
Apologies for not citing the AP story that ran in my local rag this morning, so bear with me. (Had eye surgery so I’m having trouble seeing and my home computer is fritzing as well.) If I’m mis-citing something, no harm and no foul for corrections…
The dogs were deliberately “reared”, i.e. abused, to be unnaturally aggressive. Again, apologies if I’m mis-remembering, but the quotes from the adoptive son tendered along the lines that the dogs were being made “wusses” when he recommended them being taken in by the defendents to be made tougher for the attack-dog market–in a residential apartment complex. No matter their dubious political or sexual quirks ::gulps back nausea:: they deliberately and knowingly honed animals as weapons, even if they didn’t specify who those weapons would be used against.
Dogs are ultimate social animals. They understand pack and dominance. If the human-alpha is warped, they’ll still follow pack. A responsible human establishes dominance clearly and upfront but with kindness. Any abused creature lashes out, especially an intelligent, social creature warped with bad patterning.
I have a very large dog, very threatening looking dog who’s the most clueless, friendly, galumphing idiot on the planet. She’s strong as an ox, looks menacing as hell…and is the essential gentle giant. She’s the most open-hearted, nurtering shepard one could hope for. But she scares people, without in the least meaning to. In fact she’s hurt and puzzled when she just wants to be friends but people recoil.
As her alpha pack member, it’s up to me to make sure she snaps to a “sit” or "stay"on command. If people can’t translate the doggish smiling eyes/wagging tail/erect ears–then okay. We pass on by. She’s never beyond my immediate and absolute control. NEVER. Her manners and instincts are above reproach but caution is needed…for her sake.
But she’s never been abused. She knows without doubt who’s alpha but she’s never had a hand raised to her in anger either. In my experience dogs can be amazingly stubborn, funny, subservive/maddening in pack situations. They’re social. That’s the gift and the bench mark.
Irresponsible people let their pack run amok. Mean, mad people use pack as disposable weapons. That requires a certain sick treachery of its own.
Veb
I did an experiment back in undergrad with dogs. We used campus pets as one group, and trained dogs that the college kept as the other. The trained group contained Maremmas (the big fluffy white sheep herding dogs), a New Guinea Singing Dog, and a Casa/Maremma cross.
To be allowed to use the Casa cross, you had to follow this procedure: one, obtain permission from the professor in charge of the dogs. Two, schedule your research for a time when one of the three people authorized to handle the dog were available. Three, be willing to sit with the professor and the handler to learn how to interact with the dog. Then you actually got to see the dog.
This dog’s back, when he was standing, came to just above my hip (I’m 5’6"). To take him out of the facility, you and the authorized handler first had to muzzle him, then attach a special harness that hooked into two belts much like the belts that rock climbers and rapellers wear. The harness went on the dog, the belts went on you and the handler. The muzzle had two leashes clipped on either side, much like a horse’s bridle, that you led the dog around by. He was signed in and out of the facility with exact times, where he was going, with who, etc.
The funny part about this was the dog was not vicious toward people. In fact, he was unbelievably gentle and playful. The problem was that if he got loose, he would be unbelievably playful with any animal that came across his path, and at over 200 pounds he was nearly impossible to stop. We lost an entire flock of sheep one year when he got out; after that he was kept off-campus.
They got what they deserved. I only feel sorry for their victim, and for the dogs who were only doing what they were taught.
-BK
My uncle, who was a mail carrier 
for many years, told me as much. He said that if you feel threatened by a dog, walk briskly, like you mean business.
You know, I have a small dog-a Westie. She’s getting on in years-good god, she’d be about, oh, maybe thirteen? Shit. At any rate, Westies, like most terriers, are fiesty little things, and in her old age, poor Lassie* has arthritis and she’s rather cranky. She hates being groomed, and clipped, and she’s bitten my parents a few times-mostly because she was afraid. We have a muzzle for her if we need it. She’s only bitten other times when someone stepped on her-or spooked her, and even then she only snapped. When we have company, we make sure she’s NOT around small children, and that she’s taken care of. She will ONLY bite if teased or poked or kicked. Any dog will. And we watch her.
My friend and I were once sitting on her bed, watching television, with her schnauzer on her lap. Her little brother and their cousin came running in, goofing off, and started smacking us with boxing gloves. My friend warned her cousin, but he didn’t listen and bam! Max bit her cousin’s hand. Now, d’uh, a dog, when provoked like that will bite. Hell, if you hit me, I’d hit you back!
HOWEVER…
If my dog snaps, we yell at her, tell her NO, and send her into the other room, away from us-which she hates. We do NOT allow her to jump and climb all over guests. (She’s become a complete lapdog-especially if my grandmother is here). That dog is so well-trained it’s disgusting. She comes when she’s called, she only goes outside when we’re with her, and never leaves the porch unless she’s on a leash, or we say she can-and even then it takes quite a time to coax her into the yard. We have taken care of our dog-she is never outside by herself. She’s never allowed to roam free or anything.
I think you people may remember my rant from back around Thanksgiving, when I was almost attacked by some damn mutt that was running loose unleashed from his yard. Fuck that. People, take care of your animals and don’t let them attack other people. I do my duty and take care and responsibility of my dog. Why can’t others do the same? And if my dog bit someone, EVEN IF THE PERSON WAS TEASING HER, I’d still yell at the dog, because she has always been reprimanded when she did so.
People, a dog is only as good as trained to be. My mother trained our dog well. My aunt’s dog is a complete idiot (she pees in the laundry room because my aunt doesn’t have the heart to crate train her,), but she never bites anyone. My other aunt’s dog is well-trained and very friendly. The key word here is TRAINING.
If you train a dog to be nasty, well, it’s gonna be nasty. And you have no one to blame but yourselves. Dogs are animals-they aren’t people.
*my sister named her-she was four years old. Don’t blame me. And please don’t think we have a nasty dog. We don’t. She’s just old and easily startled. That’s why we always keep an eye on her when we have company. She is NOT aggressive-well, maybe aggressively friendly, in that if you come to our house, she’ll slobber all over you and hover about your feet, hoping you’ll pet her. Complete attention whore.
(After that dog almost grabbed me, I came home and gave Lassie lots of attention!)
I have an American Pit Bull Terrier. I love my dog. I admire his athleticism, his stamina and his eagerness to please me. I have admired his breed since I was a small child watching The Little Rascals on TV. He is very friendly and loving towards people. He loves to meet new people and gets very excited when visitors come to the house.
I would not leave him in a room alone with a stranger and I put a leash on him when children are around. Genghis is only half the size of the dogs in this case and he is very friendly but I have no illusions about his potential to be dangerous if I allow him. I also have no illusions about some people’s fear of dogs. Especially breeds that were created for fighting.
I also have a Rottwieler. She’s 110 lbs of gentle love. I also keep her on leash around small children as she does not realize her own strength.
Both my dogs are well trained by myself and I have never been afraid of them. I want to keep them and enjoy their company for the rest of their lives so I take responsibility for them. This includes the day-to day routine of feeding, training, cleaning, etc as well as keeping BEWARE OF DOG signs and locks on my gates and not taking them out of the yard off-leash because I realize that anything my dogs do is my responsibility.
This seems to me to be the reason that our wonderful defendents received such harsh sentences; they seemed to think that for some reason (maybe because they are racist assholes and attorneys) that they did not bear complete responsibility for the actions of their animals.
With all due respect to someone who clearly takes this responsibility very much to heart, this part of what you said pretty much says it all. You just may not realize it.
YOUR italics kind of do you in here. What in the world makes you think that you have the power to allow or disallow an animal whose previous 5,000 years of breeding tells it to eat what it can as fast as it can with as much blood spilt as it can?
His potential to be dangerous is astonishing, and you know it. You’re proud of that fact ( I would guess, I’ve no idea clearly of course but the tone of your voice in this post has great pride in it of the dog ), one doesn’t buy a pug when one wants a Pit Bull. One buys a Pit Bull when one wants a dog with all of the force and predatory/protective characteristics that are a part of the breed.
In short, your animals do not check in with you first for a morality check before doing what animals do.
The mindset of owners that says, " my dog will only kill if I allow it to kill " is one of the single most frightening aspects of large dog ownership on this planet. It’s hubris, of the most dangerous kind.
You don’t allow, or disallow. The dog - moment to moment - weighs it’s need to please you with its need to defend itself, its territory and areas.
And then, it either attacks or does not. What makes you think you control such an animal? How many cites should I link into this thread of Pit Bull attacks on people who were NOT attacking the dog or it’s owners?
" The potential to be dangerous if you allow him" ??? Deeply disturbing concept. Deeply disturbing.
Cartooniverse, survivor of one American Pit Bull bite.
JFTR:
The American Staffordshire Terrier, and the American Bull Terrier are two different breeds, with over 100 years of breeding differentiation.
Like I said, Cartooniverse,
Nice to know that you can read my mind. Does that require my IP address?
What I actually said was
I can respect the fact that you fear and hate dogs without making personal attacks against you. How nice of you to extend me the same courtesy for my love and admiration of the same animal when it poses no threat to you or your safety. The guns locked in my father’s safe have an astonishing potential to be dangerous too, but not while locked in his safe. My dogs are completely safe while under my care and supervision.
Well, what I ACTUALLY SAID WAS THIS:
Looking for a fight? A wee bit defensive, are we? I actually stated very clearly right there that I was indeed taking an interpretation of your tone in your post, not speaking for your mind.
I’m very very glad that you are comfortable with the illusion that your
Exactly how do you insure that no human ever is close enough that the dog cannot lunge while you are holding it’s leash? Do you keep humans away from the dog at all times when they visit your home?
I don’t mean to say this just to YOU, I’m really addressing every dog owner in the world. I did in my posting up above too, but you’ve decided to pick a fight here. NO dog owner can absolutely state that a dog is completely safe while under their care and supervision. That’s the core issue I have with any and all dog owners, NOT just with you. I’m not in any way trying to make this a thread about you.
Nobody can speak for the mental workings of an animal with astonishingly fast reflexes and a Bite Strengh of 2,000-2,600 ppi. My PERSONAL opinion is that to do so is the height of irresponsibility. IMHO.
Cartooniverse
I love dogs but I think that if a breed has been designed to attack and be vicous, it should be illegal to have. I see similarities with guns.
There are stupid and just plain evil people in this world, we should be protecting ourselves and others by not giving them the weapons in the first place.
So you love a dog breed bred for fighting or a special type of gun - in the wrong hands it recks havoc, so you should do without.
Easy for me to say coming from a relatively gun free country with very strict dog-owning and licensing laws.
Looking at the US from this side of the world, one can’t help but think: you reap what you sow; people from the US appear to fight for their right to do/own anything. I still find it difficult to believe that people in some states have fought for their right to not wear car seatbelts. Truely amazing.
First point - any dog can be ‘dangerous’ around a child. I’m a dog owner and have raised dogs off and on since I was around 7. I know most dogs are fine with kids and are gentle, etc. However, I’d never a) leave an infant or toddler alone with a dog, especially one not used to them or b) leave an infant or toddler alone, period.
Here’s why: dogs don’t see kids as masters, or their pack leader, or whatever. Dogs DO have a well-developed sense of hierarchy/chain of command. Most actual dog fights arise from them trying to determine dominance in that hierarchy. The problem with kids is that dogs can see them as ‘puppies’. Most cases of a kid being ‘attacked’ (ie, not mauled, but scared by a dog who rushed it for some reason) arise from the dog trying to chastise the kid for some reason. The dog does this with a small nip or more likely with a closed mouth, teeth bared smack with its teeth. This can be very traumatic for a child, and the dog doesn’t really intend to hurt it. I’m sure we can all think of reasons a dog may not like whatever a little one is doing.
My dog is a very friendly, very well-behaved lab mix who would never hurt anyone, worst case being licking ad nauseum. I did not, though, ever leave my son and the dog alone together with any doors shut or out of my sight, until my son was maybe 4 and able to understand what a dog might not like having done to it.
My dog usually just would get a martyred look on her face in those early years when he would pull a tail or ear, and move away. I was always there though, to be sure.
I do have to take exception to the ‘no bad dogs, only owners’ line. In the main it is true, but there are rare exceptions. I’ve personally only ever been frightened by one dog, and its owners were kind and knew what they were doing. I could sense, though, that this dog WOULD attack me if it could, and most anyone else too, out of sheer meanness. The owners had this dog highly secured and safe, though, as they knew it too.
About breeds - if Chows were bigger, there’d be a public outcry about them too. Biting-est damn dogs I’ve ever seen. Never let 'em get behind you or they’ll nip your hammy for fun.
Dog owner, dog lover. I accept responsibility for my dog. Owning a dog isn’t a right, it’s a privilege. And you have to be responsible. The only thing I could think of, where it would be the victims fault, was if they came, without permission, into my yard…
I say this because today, the kids next door kicked a ball over into my yard. I was in the tub and didn’t answer the door (hey, don’t fuck with my tub time! It would have to be WWIII to get me out!) Rather than wait for me to get the ball for them, they decided to send the “dumb ass” into the yard. Yeah, the dumb ass kid, the ONLY ONE of the four who didn’t know I had a dog. (The other three knew damn well that I had a dog.)
As soon as his head came over the fence, my dog went off, barking her head off. THAT got me out of the tub. And thankfully, this kid was smart enough to NOT come into the yard. I got the ball, gave it back and cautioned them all to NEVER come into my yard without permission.
But let us go back in time. Let us say I WASN’T home and this kid came over the six foot fence, found himself in my yard and got bit. My fault? His?
I say it’s his. He was trespassing. If he got bit, too bad. He sure as shit shouldn’t have been in my yard.
But let us discuss this.
Best!
Byz
Byzantine, I have to say, I respect your words here. They sent the dumb kid? Then THOSE kids are to blame. You have your animal fenced in safely and properly. More power to ya.
It would not have been your own fault at all, it would have been an awful tragedy. You’d have felt awful, I am sure.
But, you HAVE THEM FENCED PROPERLY. Damned kids.