Doing Politics {Who do you like, and who have you liked in previous seasons?}

Who do you like, and who have you liked in previous seasons?

Is it Barack Obama, or Bill Clinton? Or perhaps Hillary Clinton, or Bernie Sanders? Or are you more of a fan of Nikki Haley, or John McCain, or you really liked Gary Johnson? Maybe Howie Hawkins?

For most of us, I think, none of them are without blemishes; we gravitate towards them because we like them enough and because we like them a shitload better than the alternatives, yes?

Why do we have to pick this way? I mean, assume for the sake of argument that we have a truly ideal set of political perspectives and positions, the stuff we’d really like to see moved forward. Let’s also assume we want to step forward and participate to the maximum possible degree in expressing what we actually want. We’re okay with being outweighed and outvoted by folks harboring other opinions but we want the maximum opportunity to really express what we want.

a) How could the whole process be made more inclusive of your (and anyone else’s) actual political opinions?

b) Would implementing any of the ideas you can think of derail the existing political system, or are these ideas that could be integrated?

c) Would these implementations and changes be a threat to either (or both) of the mainstream established political parties or would either (or both) of them benefit from this?

d) What would be the first step towards making changes in this direction?

My ideal politician would be a hawkish, more truth-telling version of Bernie Sanders. I am of the view that life is short and too fleeting for us to live under presidents who are going to just slowly let the status quo simmer and we need drastic change. But Bernie always struck me as too naive or glib and willing to fib and distort things in the name of a good cause; kind of hard to trust him.

The only solution I can think of is ranked-choice-voting and some way to get beyond first-past-the-post, along with massive media reform. Otherwise we’re forever choosing between the lesser of evils. In addition, while it’s true that voting is not picking a taxi to get to your destination but rather a bus that will get you vaguely closer, for decades, the “bus” really hasn’t gotten the nation much of anywhere, leading to desperation and demand for “taxis.”

For me, the obvious way to achieve this is a parliamentary system with strict proportional representation. A party gets one percent of the votes, they get one percent of the seats.

Then it is up to the elected parliamentarians to form a government, inevitably a coalition. The locus of political power is the prime minister who can hold such a coalition together.

Separately, there is an apolitical president to cut ribbons and be first cheerleader at cultural and sporting events.

Not a perfect system, just better than all the rest. Specifically, better than the two party system in the UK and US. Do I need to spell out why?

TL;DR - Britain and its former colonies would be much better governed if they just adopted the German constitution as it stands. It was drafted by British experts to be as good as possible, in living memory, after all.

The German constitution does not have absolute PR; it’s a mixture of voting lists and district reps.

Also, given the interaction between the two types of vote, the Bundestag grows each election. It’s currently at over 700 members. That approach would not be consistent with the constitutionnel allocation for state / provincial representation in Commonwealth federations like Australia and Canada.

Israel has an absolute PR system, which means small minority parties drive the political agenda, resulting in policies being adopted that do not have majority support.

Italy immediately post-war was much closer to pure PR than it is now. That resulted in the famed constitutional instability of governments in the Italian parliament, until constitutional amendments restricted the scope of PR voting.

ETA: I see from Wikipedia that there has been a change last year to the at seats are allocated in the Bundestag, but I don’t think it changes the fact that the number of seats can grow in the German system to accommodate PR voting? @Schnitte and @EinsteinsHund may be able to chime in.

This is the system which generated Netanyahu, Boris Johnson, and Giorgia Meloni.

Not to mention Hitler.

So, not better at all.

Thanks for that.

My understanding of the German system was that the allocation of total deputies through district reps and party lists is proportional to the votes cast. To me, that is absolute PR.

I know constitutional changes would be necessary to implement PR where constitutions currently specify differently. I see systems which allocate disproportionate representation to favoured regions as flawed.

The ‘problems’ with PR in Israel and Italy are, to me, a feature not a bug. If you don’t want small parties to have disproportionate influence or for governments to be unstable then don’t vote for large parties who cede disproportionate power to fringe parties or who won’t cooperate with other large parties to reach broadly supported compromises. Under PR, the people get exactly what they want, and if it’s chaos, then that’s what they wanted.

In other words, I want to be represented by representatives of my choice, and don’t see any downside to that. If anyone does have a problem with that, I am happy to accept a non representative parliament, provided it is my choices which are over represented. I would go so far as to say I would be happy with a global absolute monarchy, if that’s what others want, provided I get to be world king.

Britain does not have proportional representation.

This discussion is already pretty far from what the OP was asking and maybe should be split into a thread on voting systems. I’m out and about for the rest of the afternoon so can’t do it. Will post this and then flag for moderation assistance.

Good point.

I can only concede that you have a much better understanding than I. Embarassingly, I had no idea that Boris Johnston was elected under a PR system. I’m not sure how Hitler could have been denied power under any system, if you’re saying the NSDAP had the majority support of the German people.

I was a huge fan of Obama in 2008 (and remained so in 2012, but his first run in 2008 was the most exciting). I really wanted one of those “Obama 2008” baseball caps, but was unable to buy one because, as a non-American, I wasn’t allowed to make political contributions. Apparently the only way non-Americans can make political contributions is by being a belligerent foreign country like Russia or Saudi Arabia. :roll_eyes:

In this election, Kamala Harris has exceeded all my expectations. She’s been amazing, and so has her VP pick.

The thing that frustrates me so much about this election is that it’s not about a battle of two ideologies as politics usually is; it’s not a contest between two politicians offering different philosophies and different visions of the future. It’s very starkly a contest between knowledge and ignorance, between voters aware of reality and voters unaware that their candidate is a mentally unstable, demented, vengeful, hateful, habitually dishonest and utterly self-serving caricature of the worst kind of villain. The only reason America survived his first term (and it almost didn’t) was because Trump was too stupid to do most of the things he wanted.

This election is very starkly a test of whether America is capable of governing itself. Because when ignorance and lies determine the outcome of elections, democracy is dead.

I assume the OP is American.
(a) strict PR
(b) new constitution required
(c) existing parties disintegrate
(d) beats me

Probably not. Northern_Piper does have a better understand, however.

I’ve never in my life actually admired a politician or felt they represented me; I always vote against, not for.

Ironically, this is exactly the sort of cynical, counterproductive attitude that has enabled Trumpism. A big part of its appeal is not any particular set of policies, but just its general strategy of destruction, of disrupting the civil order that Trump’s acolytes think is responsible for all their woes. To them, his demented irrationality is not a bug, it’s a feature! They believe that somehow, in some way that they can’t articulate, this scorched-earth policy will benefit them.

When the current parliament is dissolved, I will be very much voting for my current MP.

I own every major book written about President John Quincy Adams this century.

He’s a guy I’d crawl over broken glass to vote for, a true intellectual and a statesman.

I admired JFK. And I liked Bill Clinton.

I cant argue with that.

The German voting system for the federal legislature (Bundestag) is a complete mess, and I would strongly advise any other country against introducing it. It is ridiculously complicated, and the main reason for this is that the Constitutional Court keeps interfering with it. Each ruling of the Court attempted to fix one perceived shortcoming of the system but then introduced another.

The basic idea of the system is the following:

It tries to combine PR with single-member constituencies (districts). The target size of the Bundestag is 598, and there exist half as many seats as that (299). This does not mean, however, that half the seats are allocated in single-member constituencies and the other half via PR; the process is more complicated than that, which I will describe below.

Each voter has two votes that operate separately. The first vote is for an individual candidate in the constituency of residence. The second vote is for a party list; Germany consists of sixteen states, and the parties draw up a list in each state. This second vote is for the purposes of PR: After the election, the second votes are tallied nationwide and determine the overall number of seats a party is getting, disregarding those parties that have less than 5 % nationwide (because we don’t want small parties in parliament). In a second step, this nationwide allocation of seats is then broken down along the lines of the sixteen state lists of that party to fill up those seats not yet won via the constituencies from the state lists.

So imagine, for instance, a party getting 10 % of the nationwide vote, which ought to get it 59 or 60 (based on the exact figures) seats in parliament. Let’s say it comes down to 59. These 59 seats are then allocated to the sixteen state lists of that party, on the basis of how much the second votes won by the party in that state make up as part of its nationwide total, so the share of the party in state X might amount to, say, ten seats. If the party won eight constituencies in that state, then the first two candidates of the party list in that state would be considered elected in addition to the eight successful district candidates. So far so good.

But here is already potential for things to get messy. Suppose the party won more constituencies in that state than its seat share under PR; in our example, let’s say they won twelve constituencies in the state, but the PR share of the state list of that party is still ten. Under the old law, the rules would say that all these twelve constituency candidates are elected (they won their district fair and square, after all), so the party gets to keep those twelve seats despite having won only ten under the rules of PR.

But now the overall size of the legislature has grown from 598 to 600 by those extra two seats that the party gets to keep, an effect known as Überhangmandate (excess seats) in German.

But now things get more complicated again. The Constitutional Court, in its infinite wisdom, interprets the (very vague wording of the) constitution as saying that the relative shares of parties in parliament must be in accordance with the shares of second votes won, and excess seats destroy this. So the law compensates for the excess seats by giving yet more seats to the other parties (other than the one that won the excess seats) so that the relative shares of seats of all parties corresponds to the relative shares of second votes won. These additional seats are known as Ausgleichsmandate (compensation seats).

The cumulative effect of excess and compensation seats means that the current Bundestag has a whopping 733 members in total rather than the target size of 598.

But there is also potential for things to get really absurd. Consider the lists of the same party in states X and Y. Perhaps the party won ten PR seats in state X and seven in state Y. But imagine a counterfactual where the party had gained just a few votes more in state X than it really has, and that this would have meant that at the step of allocating the nationwide PR seats to state lists, one of the PR seats in state Y would move to state X (so that the state list in state X would get eleven seats instead of ten, and the state list in Y six instead of seven). The total PR seats won at the national level would not change. But the additional PR seat in state X is worthless because the party already has twelve seats in that state; there’s no difference whether the PR seats allocated to that state are ten or eleven. But perhaps the PR seats for that party make a difference in state Y, where the party won fewer constituencies than PR seats. The consequence of this is that there can be situations where a party would have got more total seats nationwide if it had received a few votes less in a given state, a phenomenon known as negative effect of votes (negatives Stimmgewicht in German). This problem is still unresolved

In 2023, federal legislators got tired of inflating parliament with excess and compensation seats and decided to fix the size of the Bundestag at an unalterable 630. But the basic voting system remains the same. This means that under the new rules (which will first be applied in the 2025 elections), it is possible that someone wins the election in a constituency and will still not enter parliament, if the party already has too many constituency seats in that state compared to its share of second votes. This makes a complete mockery of the democratic decision of the voters in that district, and it will intensify a phenomenon that is already strong in Germany, namely, that the parties consider seats owned by them rather than won by cnadidates (with the resulting effect that members of the Bundestag tend to be less independently minded relative to their party leadership than their colleagues in other countries). But at least it will stop the size of the Bundestag from growing out of proportion.

I am absolutely convinced that Bernie Sanders is the most genuine and empathetic politician I’ve ever been aware of. I understand that his campaign had bad apples who were more “performative progressives”, who felt disenfranchised by the (presumed?) The Big D’s bias. Whether or not their grievances were legitimate, it’s obviously an emotional response to then turn to an evil asshole. The truth is, Bernie made ME a better, and more excepting person. I think he overpromised with his campaign, and I don’t think the man’s perfect, but he’s been such an inspiration to me, personally, and hindsight’s 20/20. I’m sure he could’ve done certain things better, but I definitely think his pursuit for a better Earth is an honest one.

I’m with him on this as well. I glad he made this video. I’m glad he’s calling out his own. I just love the guy.