Donald Trump is now a birther

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Starving_Artist

Again, what I’m doing is presenting evidence as to why people might have unanswered questions about the issue without that necessarily meaning that they have unscrupulous political motives or are morons.

So you are JAQing off. Fucking brilliant.

And yes, they are morons if they listen to reason for more than a second and still make Birther claims.

[Starving_Artist]

@Lobohan

The former Republican governor of Hawaii verified that the document is in the archives and that she had seen it. Some Hawaii official involved in records did as well. They know where it is.

Then why has Neil Abercrombie had to launch and “investigation” into its whereabouts, and why has he evidently not seen it. I can think of lots of reasons, some benign and some otherwise, as to why a former governor and certain state employees may have claimed to have seen it and want to let it go at that. The actual question regarding the document itself is twofold: where is it, and what information does it contain? Estabishing its existence would be only part of the solution.

[GIGObuster]

@Starving_Artist

Then why has Neil Abercrombie had to launch and “investigation” into its whereabouts, and why has he evidently not seen it. I can think of lots of reasons, some benign and some otherwise, as to why a former governor and certain state employees may have claimed to have seen it and want to let it go at that. The actual question regarding the document itself is twofold: where is it, and what information does it contain? Estabishing its existence would be only part of the solution.

Useless twaddle.

[Starving_Artist]

@Mr.Miskatonic

WTF do you think it contains?! Do you really think its going to say RELIGION: GODAMN HEATHEN MUSLIM on it?

In all likelyhood it has been destroyed when Hawaii went to a computerized system. Not really a mystery. If a copy survived, big deal. The computer file is what is important.

According to several sources, the original document exists in the “archives”. Governor Abercrombie’s “investigation” has shown that it exists, or confusingly, that perhaps a document pointing to it exists. He has vowed to find it and thus far does not seem to have been able to do so. So I think it’s fair to assume that the original paper document still exists somewhere.

Now, having said that, this is going to be my last post on the subject as I don’t want to be stuck here all night, and I have every confidence that I could be. I’ve said what I have to say and I’m happy to let my posts thus far stand as my position as to why some people might legitimately have questions about this issue.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

I’ve heard that people are starting to ask questions about where Starving Artist is really from. I mean, it’s conceivable that he is from the United States, I suppose. But really… I’m just not sure.

Nothing bad intended. I’m just asking questions.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Starving_Artist

According to several sources, the original document exists in the “archives”. Governor Abercrombie’s “investigation” has shown that it exists, or confusingly, that perhaps a document pointing to it exists. He has vowed to find it and thus far does not seem to have been able to do so. So I think it’s fair to assume that the original paper document still exists somewhere.

So? If it exists, whatever. If it doesn’t, it make little difference as the document wasn’t required anyway. Abercrombie’s ability or lack thereof has no bearing on the reality that Birther claims are based in fantasy.

Now, having said that, this is going to be my last post on the subject as I don’t want to be stuck here all night, and I have every confidence that I could be. I’ve said what I have to say and I’m happy to let my posts thus far stand as my position as to why some people might legitimately have questions about this issue.

You are happy to admit you are a JAQing off Birther Moron. Gotcha. Have a nice night.

[Starving_Artist]

@Mr.Miskatonic

So you are JAQing off. Fucking brilliant.

And yes, they are morons if they listen to reason for more than a second and still make Birther claims.

Oh, just one other thing. I’m pretty outspoken around here about my political views, and I’m sure that people would long ago have known it if I had “birther” sentiments on this issue. But I don’t and they haven’t. The questions I’ve suggested that people may have on this issue are perfectly valid, and people may legitimately hold them without that being evidence that they are either politically motivated or stupid. May I suggest that perhaps accusations of “JAQing off” are largely just a lame defense for not having sufficient answers.

[E-Sabbath]

It existed as of two years ago. I linked to this.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42519951/ns/politics-more_politics but the thread went zooooom.

The first is that the original so-called “long form” birth certificate — described by Hawaiian officials as a “record of live birth” — absolutely exists, located in a bound volume in a file cabinet on the first floor of the state Department of Health. Fukimo said she has personally inspected it — twice. The first time was in late October 2008, during the closing days of the presidential campaign, when the communications director for the state’s then Republican governor, Linda Lingle (who appointed Fukino) asked if she could make a public statement in response to claims then circulating on the Internet that Obama was actually born in Kenya.

Before she would do so, Fukino said, she wanted to inspect the files — and did so, taking with her the state official in charge of vital records. She found the original birth record, properly numbered, half typed and half handwritten, and signed by the doctor who delivered Obama, located in the files. She then put out a public statement asserting to the document’s validity. She later put out another public statement in July 2009 — after reviewing the original birth record a second time.

“It is real, and no amount of saying it is not, is going to change that,” Fukino said. Moreover, she added, her boss at the time, Lingle — who was backing John McCain for president — would presumably have to be in on any cover up since Fukino made her public comment at the governor’s office’s request.

Her second point — one she made repeatedly in the interview — is that the shorter, computer generated “certification of live birth” that was obtained by the Obama campaign in 2007 and has since been publicly released is the standard document that anybody requesting their birth certificate from the state of Hawaii would receive from the health department.

The document was distributed to the Obama campaign in 2007 after Obama, at the request of a campaign official, personally signed a Hawaii birth certificate request form downloaded on the Internet, according to a former campaign official who asked for anonymity.

The certification that the campaign received back —which shows that Obama was born in Honolulu at 7:24 p.m. on Aug. 4, 1961 — was based on the content of the original document in state files, Fukino said.

Hawaiian officials say that the certification is, in fact, only one piece of abundant evidence of Obama’s birth in Hawaii. Joshua Wisch, a spokesman for the Hawaii attorney general’s office, noted that a public index of vital records, available for inspection in a bound volume at the Health Department’s Office of Health Status Monitoring, lists a male child named “Obama II, Barack Hussein” as having been born in the state.

In addition, as Factcheck.org and other media organizations have repeatedly pointed out, both of Honolulu’s newspapers, the Honolulu Advertiser on Aug. 13, 1961, and the Honolulu Star Bulletin, on Aug. 14, 1961, both ran birth announcements listing Obama’s birth on Aug. 4 of that year.

Even Fukino accepts that her comments are not likely to end the matter for the die-hard birthers. Trump and other skeptics have questioned why the original birth certificate has not been released.

But Wisch, the spokesman for the attorney general’s office, said state law does not in fact permit the release of “vital records,” including an original “record of live birth” — even to the individual whose birth it records.

“It’s a Department of Health record and it can’t be released to anybody,” he said. Nor do state laws have any provision that authorizes such records to be photocopied, Wisch said. If Obama wanted to personally visit the state health department, he would be permitted to inspect his birth record, Wisch said.

Sorry for the extended quote, but I wanted to make this point by point clear. Any questions, Starving Artist?

As far as him changing the law to let other people look at his birth certificate, why should he make any effort that way? He’s got all the evidence he needs. He has proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, he was born in these United States, more than 35 years ago.

[Starving_Artist]

@E-Sabbath

It existed as of two years ago. I linked to this.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42519951/ns/politics-more_politics but the thread went zooooom.

Sorry for the extended quote, but I wanted to make this point by point clear. Any questions, Starving Artist?

Yes, four occur to me: One, why has governor Abercrombie not been able to find and view it, despite having launched an “investigation” which would enable him to do so; two, why is there some confusion over whether Abercrombie’s investigation unearthed the original document or another document pointing to it; three, if the document can’t be released, can somebody still look at or make copies of it (and if not, why not); and four, (and perhaps most importantly) what information does it contain?

Now, do I think it shows he’s a Muslim? I doubt it. It may show the religion of his parents but I don’t see how a particular religious belief can be attributed to a newborn child. I don’t really know information is supposed to be on the original documents, just like I don’t know why it’s apparently so important to keep anyone from seeing them. All I know is that there are sufficient grounds for people to have questions and until the issue is settled in some concrete way, the circumstances surrounding Obama’s birth are going to continue to be a thorn in Obama’s side and in the side of people around here who can’t seem to find more important things to become outraged over. The whole thing is a non-starter. Obama is the president, just like GWB was the president after the 2000 election no matter what the hanging chad folks claimed, and in the end it doesn’t make any difference if people do have questions about it. Welcome to political life in America, where in the meantime, Democratic leaders are claiming that Republicans are being sent to Capitol Hill in order to kill women. Cite

Frankly, I think your morons are much worse than our morons.

And now I’m out. I really am! Don’t make me come back here again!

[GIGObuster]

@Starving_Artist

Yes, four occur to me: One, why has governor Abercrombie not been able to find and view it, despite having launched an “investigation” which would enable him to do so; two, why is there some confusion over whether Abercrombie’s investigation unearthed the original document or another document pointing to it; three, if the document can’t be released, can somebody still look at or make copies of it (and if not, why not); and four, (and perhaps most importantly) what information does it contain?

Now, do I think it shows he’s a Muslim? I doubt it. It may show the religion of his parents but I don’t see how a particular religious belief can be attributed to a newborn child. I don’t really know information is supposed to be on the original documents, just like I don’t know why it’s apparently so important to keep anyone from seeing them. All I know is that there are sufficient grounds for people to have questions and until the issue is settled in some concrete way, the circumstances surrounding Obama’s birth are going to continue to be a thorn in Obama’s side and in the side of people around here who can’t seem to find more important things to become outraged over. The whole thing is a non-starter. Obama is the president, just like GWB was the president after the 2000 election no matter what the hanging chad folks claimed, and in the end it doesn’t make any difference if people do have questions about it. Welcome to political life in America, where in the meantime, Democratic leaders are claiming that Republicans are being sent to Capitol Hill in order to kill women. Cite

Frankly, I think your morons are much worse than our morons.

And now I’m out. I really am! Don’t make me come back here again!

Useless twaddle.

[Algorithm]

@Starving_Artist

Oh, just one other thing. I’m pretty outspoken around here about my political views, and I’m sure that people would long ago have known it if I had “birther” sentiments on this issue. But I don’t and they haven’t. The questions I’ve suggested that people may have on this issue are perfectly valid, and people may legitimately hold them without that being evidence that they are either politically motivated or stupid. May I suggest that perhaps accusations of “JAQing off” are largely just a lame defense for not having sufficient answers.

Where do you believe Barack Obama was born?
[ol]
[li]Hawaii[/li][li]Kenya[/li][li]Somewhere else outside the U.S.A.[/li][/ol]

Just curious. Should be an easy question to answer.

[gonzomax]

Investigation , looking for a birth certificate? Wonder where you would find a thing like that? They must have a staff of “experts” tracking that down. Oh yes, it has to be the proper length. There are short ones, long ones, embossed ones . Just so many that will not do.
When i had to get a copy of mine, i believe I spent 14 bucks and ordered on line. Perhaps I did not know enough to get the right one. I did not ask if it were a long form, properly embossed, signed by the right people certificate. It served as an official ,government document that allowed me to get a passport.
I wonder where the birther nuts got the idea that there are different forms given out by the government that are just not to be trusted. Could it be Rush Limburger, or Fox or Beck.

[Waenara]

@Starving_Artist

Yes, four occur to me: One, why has governor Abercrombie not been able to find and view it, despite having launched an “investigation” which would enable him to do so; two, why is there some confusion over whether Abercrombie’s investigation unearthed the original document or another document pointing to it; three, if the document can’t be released, can somebody still look at or make copies of it (and if not, why not); and four, (and perhaps most importantly) what information does it contain?

See now, this shows that you’re either a moron or you didn’t read and/or comprehend the post you’re quoting. How can you ask why the document can’t be released or copied and why not, when the post you’re quoting clearly said:

But Wisch, the spokesman for the attorney general’s office, said state law does not in fact permit the release of “vital records,” including an original “record of live birth” — even to the individual whose birth it records.

“It’s a Department of Health record and it can’t be released to anybody,” he said. Nor do state laws have any provision that authorizes such records to be photocopied, Wisch said. If Obama wanted to personally visit the state health department, he would be permitted to inspect his birth record, Wisch said.

So even if another independent person was allowed to view the birth certificate, they couldn’t copy it. The Birthers would question the “independence” of any person who states they saw it. And really, it’s obvious that even if the original or a copy of the original were released the Birthers would claim it was photoshopped or faked in some way. Witness morons earlier in the thread who questioned the authenticity of Obama’s birth certificate that’s already been released on the internet. Nothing would satisfy some Birthers except passing around the original for millions of morons to see in person. And really, given the type of people they are, even if they saw the original “long form” certificate live and in person, they’d probably still say it was faked. Probably by the same time-travelling lizard-people cronies of Obama who faked the newspaper birth announcements.

[crowmanyclouds]

Wanna actually hear Mike Evans [del]flounder like a floundering thing[/del] say it?

Mike Evans Back Tracks on Birth Certificate Story YouTube

No, SA it isn’t a life-or-death issue.
<snip>passionate, cited, appeal to SA’s reason and patriotism<snip>
Really just ain’t worth the effort.

CMC fnord!
BTW, just to declare victory as I depart the field,

John McCain (born 1936), who ran for the Republican party nomination in 2000 and was the Republican nominee in 2008, was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone. McCain never released his birth certificate to the press or independent fact checking organizations, but did show it to Washington Post reporter Michael Dobbs: "A senior official of the McCain campaign showed a reporter Dobbs a copy of the senator’s birth certificate issued by Canal Zone health authorities, recording his birth in the Coco Solo “family hospital”. A lawsuit filed by Fred Hollander in 2008 alleged that McCain was actually born in a civilian hospital in Colon City, Panama. Dobbs wrote that in his autobiography, “Faith of My Fathers,” McCain wrote that he was born “in the Canal Zone” at the U.S. Naval Air Station in Coco Solo, which was under the command of his grandfather, John S. McCain Sr. “The senator’s father, John S. McCain Jr., was an executive officer on a submarine, also based in Coco Solo. His mother, Roberta McCain, now 96, has vivid memories of lying in bed listening to raucous celebrations of her son’s birth from the nearby officers’ club. The birth was announced days later in the English-language Panamanian American newspaper.” The former unincorporated territory of the Panama Canal Zone and its related military facilities were not regarded as United States territory at the time, but 8 U.S.C. § 1403, which became law in 1937, retroactively conferred citizenship on individuals born within the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and on individuals born in the Republic of Panama on or after that date who had at least one U.S. citizen parent employed by the U.S. government or the Panama Railway Company; 8 U.S.C. § 1403 was cited in Judge Alsup’s 2008 ruling, described below. A paper by former Solicitor General Ted Olson and Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe published in March 2008 opined that McCain was eligible for the Presidency. In April 2008 the U.S. Senate approved a non-binding resolution recognizing McCain’s status as a natural born citizen. In September 2008 U.S. District Judge William Alsup stated obiter in his ruling that it is “highly probable” that McCain is a natural born citizen from birth by virtue of 8 U.S.C. § 1401, although he acknowledged the alternative possibility that McCain became a natural born citizen retroactively, by way of 8 U.S.C. § 1403. These views have been criticized by Gabriel J. Chin, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona, who argues that McCain was at birth a citizen of Panama and was only retroactively declared a born citizen under 8 U.S.C. § 1403, because at the time of his birth and with regard to the Canal Zone the Supreme Court’s Insular Cases overruled the Naturalization Act of 1795, which would otherwise have declared McCain a U.S. citizen immediately at birth. The US Foreign Affairs Manual states that children born in the Panama Canal Zone at certain times became U.S. nationals without citizenship. It also states in general that “it has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural born citizen […]”. In Rogers v. Bellei the Supreme Court only ruled that “children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment”, and didn’t elaborate on the natural born status. Similarly, legal scholar Lawrence Solum concluded in an article on the natural born citizen clause that the question of McCain’s eligibility could not be answered with certainty, and that it would depend on the particular approach of “constitutional construction”. The urban legend fact checking website Snopes.com has examined the matter and cites numerous experts. It considers the matter “undetermined”.[RIGHT]CITE[/RIGHT]

Now I’m reasonably certain McCain wasn’t born on US soil, and he probably had a claim to Panamanian citizenship, just like Obama had to both/either British and/or Kenyan citizenship. But, one of his parents was an American citizen, case closed, RIGHT? Strike anybody else that it’s odd that the Birthers don’t have any problem with a dual-citizenship holding, Birth Certificate hiding guy is the senior Senator from Arizona? I mean, since the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate could end up in the Oval Office shouldn’t all of them have to meet the same “Natural Born Citizen” standard?
(One of the many permutations of Birtherism is that dual citizenship takes away your status as a “Natural Born Citizen”.)

But, this is AMERICA and we really don’t give a fuck about the law in other nations. Go ahead North Korea just see how much we care when you give the next Republican candidate for Prez citizenship, guess what WE DON’T GIVE A FUCK! Do we?

So, I guess I will be putting Il Kim on my speed dial and I won’t be asking any questions if certain CountyCourtHealthDepartmentHallofVitalDocumentRecordsandOtherUselessPiecesofPaper should mysteriously burn down. Trust me SA the other side is smart enough to out-dumb anything your side can come up with.

Thanks SA, you’ve helped me see the light, my lack of faith in humanity is rekindled!

Off to do important things, like getting on Nadir’s ignore list and polishing my colanders, g’night John-Boy!

[Lobohan]

SA. Can you cite specifically where Abercrombie says there is no birth certificate he can find?

Please and thank you.

[E-Sabbath]

@Starving_Artist

Yes, four occur to me: One, why has governor Abercrombie not been able to find and view it, despite having launched an “investigation” which would enable him to do so; two, why is there some confusion over whether Abercrombie’s investigation unearthed the original document or another document pointing to it; three, if the document can’t be released, can somebody still look at or make copies of it (and if not, why not); and four, (and perhaps most importantly) what information does it contain?
And now I’m out. I really am! Don’t make me come back here again!

So you’re just asking questions and you don’t expect answers?

One: The governor is not an authorized viewer of this private medical information. As far as I know, the only people who can view it are medical professionals and people working in vital statistics departments.

Two: I have no idea what you are talking about. It doesn’t matter, either way.

Three: No. Nobody can make copies of it. Not even Obama. They can release a certificate that says it exists. Which they have done.

Four: That Obama was born, at X hospital, at Y date, to Z parents. What more do you need to know? Do you think it says Race: Lizard? The only relevant information here is if he’s eligible to be President, and if, god forbid, Stanley and Barack Sr. were both Satanists, then he’d still be eligible.

[Jack_Batty]

Of course Starving Artist doesn’t expect answers. He’s just trolling, towit:

@Starving_Artist

What I don’t understand is why this is such a big deal to the left. … One would think the logical response would be to shrug your shoulders and say “Who cares? Let 'em think what they want.” But it isn’t, and so I’m left to wonder why this issue gets under the skin of lefties like it does?

If we take him at his word that he’s not a Birther, he’s just stirring shit to get under the lefties’ skin. He doesn’t expect an answer, and if you do answer it’s proof that you’re hiding something.

It’s rather, fat bald guy stroking a fluffy white cat, level genius in it’s dickheadishness.

[Fear_Itself]

@Starving_Artist

I’m not the President of the United States and an important constitutional question doesn’t ride on my being able to do so.

There is no constitutional requirement for the president to produce his original birth certificate. The constitution requires that president be a natural born citizen. This requirement has been met, because his birth has been certified by the legal authority in his state of birth. Doubts about the acceptability of that certification exist only in the fevered imagination of the birthers. The constitutional requirement has been satisfied.

[Harborwolf]

@crowmanyclouds

because Kenyans lack the Birth Certificate gene.
I fear, at some point, the entire board will just condense into a thread singularity.

CMC fnord!
Hey SA, guess who else (AFAIK) never showed anyone his Birth Certificate?

Anyway, I’ve come to feel that you’re (Harborwolf) one of the good guys on the other side. Several of you I tussled with have become people I respect. FinnAgain, GIGObuster and crowmanyclouds are some of the others. Starving Artist
Sticks in my gizzard it does.

For what it’s worth, I’m not on a side either yours or the other. I just have this pesky allergy to bullshit and this birther nonsense is making my sinuses just burn.

@Starving_Artist

Oh, just one other thing. I’m pretty outspoken around here about my political views, and I’m sure that people would long ago have known it if I had “birther” sentiments on this issue. But I don’t and they haven’t. The questions I’ve suggested that people may have on this issue are perfectly valid, and people may legitimately hold them without that being evidence that they are either politically motivated or stupid. May I suggest that perhaps accusations of “JAQing off” are largely just a lame defense for not having sufficient answers.

Oh fuck you. I’m done pretending this “reasonable” stance you’re taking is anything other than either cowardice or a knee jerk reaction because you hate liberals and the liberals think he was born in this country. Now if you want to go on like there is a reasonable side to the birther issue, go right ahead. Just know that you aren’t being intelligent by “just asking questions” and “suggesting that the concerns are perfectly valid.” They aren’t. Not one bit. The concerns are being held by partisan hacks for political gain and morons who still can’t believe that a black guy is running the country.

Being a birther is just as reasonable as being an intelligent design idiot or a 9/11 truth movement lunatic. It’s a denial of reality even as it’s slapping you in the face. It’s as bad as saying that there are questions about gravity. I don’t even think that people pushing such a concept are worthy of calm and reasoned debate as all it does is give them a stage to further their “questions.”

TLDR: Birther (or even one "just asking questions)=complete fucking idiot worthy of nothing but scorn.

[Starving_Artist]

I’m about to call it a night (well, my night anyway) but before I go I’ll just address this real quick.

I find it ironic that on a board devoted to the elimination of ignorance, it should be considered that the circumstances around Obama’s birth, be they suspicions as to where he was born or disadvantageous information on his original certificate of live birth, should be considered off limits for questions, with only insults and derision considered the appropriate response should anyone dare to voice these questions or suspicions. On a site truly devoted to fighting ignorance, I would think that all comers would be welcome and that anytime a question might be raised for which there is a conclusive answer, that answer would be made. And in the event that the question can’t be answered, that should be acknowledged as unsettled and therefore open to honest debate. There are legitimate questions to be asked about the circumstances of Obama’s birth, and it must be considered that at least some people are not necessarily guided by political motivations or stupidity in asking them, even if the majority may in fact be guided by political motives or perhaps stupidity. Thus, the subject in all its aspects should be open to free and frank discussion with idea in mind of fighting ignorance without name-calling (for as we all know, if a person can’t ask they can’t learn, can they, and since name-calling serves only to inhibit or eliminate inquisitive participation, it runs counter to the boards stated goal of fighting ignorance. I mean, how can ignorance be fought if it can’t even be raised). So I will reiterate for the 174 3/4 time, people…or at least some people…have every right to wonder about these questions and to wonder about such things as why Governor Abercrombie can’t find Obama’s original record; about why an investigation had to be launced by his office in an attempt to find it - an investigation that so far seems to have been futile. And why, as a matter of fact, is information on the original document of live birth (for everyone apparently, not just Obama) held in such strict secrecy? People are suspicious, and rightly so, when the government says to them, “We have the answer you’re looking for, but no one is allowed to see it. Thus, you’ll just have to take our word for it. Sorry.” When confronted with an answer like that, almost any American would respond with questions as to why the document itself is supposed to be kept in such great secrecy, and what information does it contain that compells that great secrecy. And yet here on the ignorance-fighting Straight Dope, Obama’s supporters would have us timidly take their word for it and let the subject drop, as to do otherwise is irrefutable evidence either of political villany or sheer stupidity. And for some reason that just doesn’t seem kosher with regard to the mission of the board.

I would try to break all that down into more readable paragraphs but the Ambien pill I took half an hour ago is making the typing of even these words without error difficult enough. So I’ll leave them as they are for you to rummage about it if you wish, or you can forego reading it and simply skip ahead to calling me a moron, which would almost certainly be the end result anyway.

And now I must bid you adieu in hopes of getting to sleep before the sun rises high enough in my window to make it difficult. Ciao.