If everybody did that, there wouldn’t be a war on ignorance to fight.
You know what would be more constructive, Izzy? Actually coming up with counterarguments to our assertions instead of just harping on the fact that you’re sure we have no idea what we’re talking about.
Izzy
Have a look at Polycarp’s post, which started you off on your little foray into “appeal to authority” fallacy. He did not make anything like a “100% definitive statement” about anything. He offered an opinion based on some familiarity with theology, both Christian, and comparative. He certainly has shown a level of scholarship over the years here that entitles him to a modicum of respect on the subject of comparative theology.
But all that aside, you have just pretty much promised never to voice an opinion on this forum except in areas where you hold authoritative educational credentials in the exact matter under discussion. I am sorry to hear that we won’t be hearing from you much anymore.
I think you have backed yourself into a cul-de-sac. Poly has as much reasonable understanding of islamic principals as do most well read Christian theologians. I do not. Yet I completely agree with his assessment based on my knowledge of Muslim people. The ones I know are not notably more prone to violence than are the people who I got to know in Philadelphia as I grew up. They were American Jews. Nor than the people I currently live among. They are South American and Korean Immigrants. I have no degree in anything, of course, so my opinions deserve no consideration, under an authoritarian only evaluation system.
“Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.” ~ Thomas Jefferson ~
olentzero
But that would kind of contradict everything I’ve posted here, wouldn’t it?
Here’s what he said (emphasis added)
Seems pretty definitve to me. YMMV.
I feel your pain. But it may please you to know that not all subjects are as complex as determining the overall stance of an unfamiliar religion as to a given topic. And even in such a case one might make certain logical arguments that are less sweeping than what is being discussed here. But feel free to call me on it if you ever feel I’m being hypocritical.
Especially if you can’t even understand what is being discussed. Of course there are many Muslims who are no more prone to violence etc. But there are some who are, or who support it. The question is a theological one - who’s interpretation is correct. If you figure it - and know what you are talking about - let me know.
IZZY, I have read this whole thread carefully, and I must tell you that you are coming across as a person with nothing of any substance to add to the question under consideraton – someone who, to the contrary, has simply stopped by to pick nits regarding others’ posting styles.
HERE’s what POLY said, with the proper emphasis added: “I think I’m totally in the right in saying that Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful, had absolutely no hand in the killing of innocent people . . . .” Note the use of the word “think,” indicative of an opinion, not a fact. In light of it my M certainly does V.
Unless someone died and made you Arbiter of Posts, it is not for you to pass judgment on whether or not someone is entitled to post an opinion; whether or not they have sufficient expertise to do so persuasively; or whether or not the topic is or is not sufficiently complex to call for “expertise” is discussing it. If you disagree with a point made, you have every right to take issue with it. You have NO right to demand anyone present credentials before posting.
And since you invite us to feel free to call you on it if you are being hypocritical – you are being hypocritical. You yourself essayed at least one opinion on the law *url=“http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81028&pagenumber=2”]here that you demonstrably lacked the qualifications to offer. I did not tell you that you were not “qualified” to hold your opinion (which would have been tiresome); I attempted to explain why you were incorrect. If you wish to check educational i.d.s before allowing people to offer opinions, I suggest you strictly confine your comments to your own areas of expertise as well.
Questions of theology are not amenable to determinations of "correct"ness, being at bottom subjective. That is why in matters of religion everyone is entitled to have and to give their own opinions, and to back them up if requested. Including POLYCARP. And including you, if you wanted to offer an actual opinion, as opposed to an uninvited posting critique.
Now if you wanted to criticize my ability to use code, that you could do. Here’s the thread in question:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81028&pagenumber=2
Jodi, kick ass.
IzzyR, I’ve noticed your idiot pronouncements before, but it’s only after seeing your bizarre statements regarding yesterday’s tragedy that I wish the SDMB had a blocking feature so I could prevent your drivel from infesting my screen.
I have been studying Islam and other comparative religion for over 15 years. At the graduate level. Here are some facts:
When the Qur’an says to fight for the faith, it refers to defensive action against attacking armies.
The Islamic law of warfare based on this and on Prophet Muhammad’s explicit commands is to fight only enemy soldiers. It is explicitly forbidden to kill or harm or even threaten the following classes of people: Women, children, old people, members of religious orders. In other words, all noncombatants. It is also forbidden to destroy crops or trees. Also, suicide is absolutely forbidden. Thus all terrorist actions that harm anyone other than soldiers are in violation of Islamic law. Anyone who claims to serve “Islam” by such crimes is a liar and a fraud. In addition, military actions can only be commanded by authorized leaders, not by just anyone. So for several reasons, terrorism is completely outside Islam. There is no question about this. It is not a matter of interpretation. All scholars of Islamic law are unanimous on this.
I strongly agree with Jomo Mojo that that the Muslim faith has nothing to do with yesterday’s horrible events. Linking Muslims or Arabs to yesterday’s attack makes no more sense than linking all Americans to the Oklahoma City bombing. All cultures have a tiny percentage of fanatics who attract the lion’s share of notice by the outside world. I know of no religion that advocates terrorism. There are certainly utilize religion as a shield/justification for their terrible plans and ambitions, but these people are only trying to bolster their cause with a divine inspiration and justification.
I believe it is wrong, immoral, and just plain stupid to respond to terrorism or warfare with prejudice and hate toward any race or nationality of people. Most people simply want peace and prosperity for their families. We lose some of our own humanity by debasing the humanity of others.
[This is exactly what I was talking about.]
Arab-Americans fear backlash
By Deborah Kong
Sept. 12, 2001 |
A day after suspected terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, Arab-American, Muslim and Sikh leaders reported sporadic vandalism and assaults against their communities.
Mosque windows were shattered in Texas, a New York man was arrested for an alleged anti-Arab threat, and a prison fight broke out over Muslim slurs in Washington state.
“I’m urging people not to play into the hands of the terrorists, not to act like them,” said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, D.C. […]
{Edited out of copyright concerns. Post links or excerpts only, please. --Gaudere}
[Edited by Gaudere on 09-13-2001 at 08:22 PM]
[Sadly, we can expect a lot of this kind of story right about now.]
Crowd protests at Illinois mosque
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By MELANIE COFFEE
Sept. 13, 2001 | BRIDGEVIEW, Ill. (AP) --
A perhaps predictable backlash hit several communities as federal officials said there was mounting evidence that radical Muslims planned and carried out the terror attacks in New York and Washington.
Police turned back 300 marchers – some waving American flags and shouting “USA! USA!” – as they tried to march on a mosque in this southwest Chicago suburb late Wednesday.
Three demonstrators were arrested, said Bridgeview Police Chief Charles Chigas. There were no injuries and demonstrators were kept blocks from the closed Muslim worship place.
"I’m proud to be American and I hate Arabs and I always have," said 19-year-old Colin Zaremba who marched with the group from Oak Lawn. […]
{Edited out of copyright concerns. Post links or excerpts only, please. --Gaudere}
[Edited by Gaudere on 09-13-2001 at 08:23 PM]
A good point on this issue, I think, was made in the Detroit Free Press today. This is from Alan Amen, a 54-year-old, Arab-American, father of three who was born in raised in Dearborn, the largest Arab population in the world outside of Saudi Arabia. They are very fearful of angry retribution there right now.
“It’s incomprehensible,” he said of the terrorism Tuesday. "The people who did this are no more ‘Islamic’ than the Ku Klux Klan are ‘Christian.’ "
Feh…
I know that area very well…I went to high school just across the street from Oak Lawn, and had many friends from that area. Sad to say, there have always been some tension against Arabs (and other races) in that part of suburban Chicago (and parts of the city, as well.) And now some fuckwits have to use this as a carte blanche to openly hate their Arab neighbors. Yeah, really productive, jagoff. It is this facet of Americana that shames me. I would like to tell each of these people: I am embarrassed of you and the way you soil the name of America, how you distort its ideals, and how you wrap your open racism in the flag of patriotism. Have you not learned anything from history? I can only hope that one day you will see how foolish, counterproductive and un-American you are.
Jodi, it’s great to see that your great love for me is still burning strong. Despite this, I must regrettably decline to discuss this matter with you further, having had - well - “interesting” experiences with you in the past.
Your charge of hypocrisy is of greater interest, but would be probably be better served by addressing it in a different thread. If you feel like doing that, I am willing to address that charge, stupid as it is.
I think the quote “I hate Arabs and I always have” tells us volumes about the type of people we’re dealing with here.
There are bigots in America and they are nothing new. I am not surprised that people who are narrow-minded, hate-filled, and ignorant or stupid (or both) would take this attack as an excuse to air their distasteful views. They use this tragedy as an excuse to promote an agenda based on hate. In so doing, they prove themselves to be cut from the same cloth as the terrorists they claim to hate.
IZZY –
To the extent this implies that I have strong feelings about you personally, either love or hate, I assure you that is not the case. I don’t know you well enough to care about you either way. But I did think you were out of line to nitpick POLY, and I have said so. I could not care less whether you choose to “discuss the matter further” or not. There seems to me to be little further to discuss. I do sort of idly wonder, however, why anyone would take the time to post that they are not going to discuss a matter. It seems to me you might have saved some time by simply not addressing me at all.
This is extremely simple: You invited posters to take you to task for hypocrisy in your demand that expertise be proven before posting opinions. I took you up on the invitation, having seen recently seen you do precisely what you now complain about. To me, the exchange was: “If I’m a hypocrite, show me.” “Here’s Exhibit A.” Why you would then invite me to start another thread on the matter, I cannot imagine. You invited an example and I gave you one. What is left to discuss? Certainly I would say that they last thing I “feel” like doing today is starting a thread on a subject that is neither topical nor of any interest to me personally.
I didn’t mean to turn this thread into a general discussion of my posting habits. I meant that if in a particular thread I did the same thing that I criticized Polycarp for, then I could justly be criticized in the same way that I here critized Poly. More so, due to my opinions expressed here. The appropriate place would be the thread in which I did that, or a separate thread.
As far as the OP goes, being a Muslim neighbor myself, I’d certainly dig not being attacked.
Although I faced some flak growing up, especially during the Gulf War (since my last name is Hussain), it was always from people who, I consoled myself, would probably be working for me someday.
I seem a lot less worried about reactions to my religion now, probably because despite my family being from Pakistan, we all look relatively “Mediterranean”. Enough so that a very sweet and concerned friend suggested I come up with an Italian name to use, no matter how absurd. Like, she joked, “Rigatoni Mozarella”. Reminded me of the Austin Powers scene: “Hello, my name is Richie Cunningham, and this is my wife Oprah.”
But overall, I’ve been blessed to travel in relatively enlightened circles, where ignorance is quickly amended through intelligent questions. That’s why I love this board. 
IZZY, I will as usual give your comments regarding where I post and what I post, and the propriety therof, the attention and consideration they deserve. :rolleyes:
Izzy:
I felt that continuing our debate about statements regarding questions of belief would be pointless, but it appears that both you and others (supporting my views or my right to post them, for which thanks! :)) seem to wish to continue this, so here goes:
I made an assertion regarding the views of Islam, for which I, operating on a public access computer, did not provide a cite to the site on which I had reviewed the “mainstream” Islamic stance on jihad. Nor will I now – you have at least as much access to search engines as I; educate yourself on it. In sum, however, a jihad under traditional (I believe Sunni) views is a war engaged for defensive reasons when Muslims or their right to practice their faith have been harmed. It may be continued to offensive status only under stringent circumstances which I do not recall the full details of, but which amount to “when it’s necessary for one’s continued safety/freedom not to merely defend but to eradicate the strength of those oppressing Islam or Muslims.”
As Jodi pointed out, my statement was prefaced by “I think…” I trust you will not object to my asserting that I am the world’s greatest expert on my opinions. And my assertion as to the views of God (YHWH, AKA Jehovah and Allah in various groups claiming to follow Him) regarding terrorism was based on statements of all three faiths on His nature.
I trust you would not find fault with my asserting that Jesus is not known to have ever commanded the bombing of abortion clinics, however He may have felt about abortion, and whatever a few lunatics may do and claim it’s in His name. It was in similar context that I made an assertion about the views of Islam as promulgated by (most of) its theologians.
Being Christian does not incline me to buy the venom of Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell as normative for my faith. Being Muslim would likewise not incline person X to buy the late Ayatollah Khomeini’s rantings as normative of his/her faith.
In one sense, you are correct: the views of people claiming to be speaking in behalf of a religion are legitimately to be taken into consideration, not necessarily the abstract theology behind it.
My point, however, is that just as Christianity does not preach “God hates fags” despite Fred Phelps’ views, and he or she who takes Fred as normative of Christianity is acting in ignorance, so taking radical terrorists as normative of Islam is similarly so. There are aspects of Islamic thought and belief that are uncongenial to me and my worldview, to be sure, but they are not therefore to be equated to the barbarisms practiced by a few terrorists in its name.
Finally, I would assert that while this board is founded on the idea of seeking out the truth and combatting ignorance of it, the expression of legitimately held viewpoints and informed opinions has never been condemned, though they are as always subject to correction by additional information. pldennison, for example, might link me to a thread disputing my assertion above about jihad, or Hastur or Esprix might show me a thread on organized Christianity’s historical condemnation of homosexuals. But I will continue to post where I believe myself to be adequately informed to contribute something useful to the discussion, keeping in mind that I may, like Cromwell’s hearers, be in error on something I believe.
Are we in some agreement at this point?
If someone say to me, “Islam tells me I must kill you”, don’t tell me I’ve got the wrong idea about Islam, tell him.
What was the reaction of the international Muslim community when Osama bin Laden issued his call (was it a fatwa or a jihad
) for all Muslims to kill Americans? Mostly silence. What was the reaction to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie? Overwhelming support (even from Cat Stevens). How often have have we seen huge crowds in Muslim countries chanting “death to America, death to the Great Satan!” ?
Interpretations of the Koran which appear to condemn violence only go so far. Islam, like other religions, is not just a religious doctrine but also a political movement. It is comprised of not just the Koran, but the sum total of all organizations and individuals who call themselves Muslim or Islamic–and their actions.
The key question is whether the group of extremists (in which I would include all supporters of anti-Western violence) constitute an insignificant or significant element of the worldwide Islamic movement. If it’t the latter, then mainstream Muslims may have had some obligation to speak out against this kind of extremism. (I mean before this week; now it’s very easy.) Instead, most of the rhetoric from moderate Muslim leaders has been criticism of Americans for what they percieve as anti-Muslim prejudice. What about all the anti-American prejudice?
I am a Protestant of Irish descent. Last week I focused my rage on those Irish Protestants who were attacking those Catholic schoolgirls. I feel that one should spend at least as much time rooting out prejudice from among those who represent your group as from others against your group (like I’m doing here).
The other day I attended an anti-Klan rally in St. Paul. A couple dozen guys–fellow white Protestants–dressed in Klan robes and ridiculous Nazi brownshirts were shouted down by a couple thousand liberals. Lotta liberals in Afghanistan. When I see tape of Muslim crowds chanting “death to Osama bin Laden” I’ll be convinced.