Don't attack your Muslim neighbors

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

First of all, I’m gonna totally agree with the OP. In Montreal, one of universities has been having a lot of tensions between Palestinian and Jewish student organizations. As a result, once this happened, there were supposedly fights there.

When I spoke to my mother (the worrywart) she wanted me to come directly home and skip the rest of my classes because she was worried about me getting into a riot. Thankfully, at my school, the Muslim Student Association and Hillel live peacefull down the hall from each other. It’s scary that this affects us all so close to home.

Next (continuing the hijack, sorry Jomo Mojo)

Originally Posted by IzzyR
There’s no need for a consensus. Anyone who is seriously informed is entitled to an opinion. Those who are not well informed would be wise to refrain from definitive statements in the area.

So unless I have a university degree in a subject I’m not allowed to comment on it?

[Spider_Woman]

Here is a link by an American journalist who is also Muslim.

Here is a small portion of the article in case the link disappears:

From a September 13 Washington Post article by By Reshma Memon Yaqub
Like every American, I am outraged. And I want justice. But perhaps unlike many other Americans, I’m feeling something else too. A different kind of fear. I’m feeling what my 6 million fellow American Muslims are feeling – the fear that we too will be considered guilty in the eyes of America, if it turns out that the madmen behind this terrorism were Muslim.

I feel as though I’ve suddenly become the enemy of two groups – those who wish to hurt Americans, and those Americans who wish to strike back. It’s a frightening corner to be in. In the past, when lone Muslims have committed acts of terrorism – or have been mistakenly assumed to be guilty, as in Oklahoma City – hate crimes have abounded against American Muslims who look like they’re from “that part of the world,” against American mosques, against American children in Muslim schools who pray to the same peace-loving God as Jews and Christians.

[HairyPotter]

*Originally posted by sqweels *
**

If someone say to me, “Islam tells me I must kill you”, don’t tell me I’ve got the wrong idea about Islam, tell him.

What was the reaction of the international Muslim community when Osama bin Laden issued his call (was it a fatwa or a jihad) for all Muslims to kill Americans? Mostly silence. What was the reaction to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie? Overwhelming support (even from Cat Stevens). How often have have we seen huge crowds in Muslim countries chanting “death to America, death to the Great Satan!” ?

Text deleted

"The people who did this are no more ‘Islamic’ than the Ku Klux Klan are ‘Christian.’ "

The other day I attended an anti-Klan rally in St. Paul. A couple dozen guys–fellow white Protestants–dressed in Klan robes and ridiculous Nazi brownshirts were shouted down by a couple thousand liberals. Lotta liberals in Afghanistan. When I see tape of Muslim crowds chanting “death to Osama bin Laden” I’ll be convinced. **

I commend you for loudly condeming those who promote violence or hate. I condemn you for suggesting that any race, religion, or national group owes you hard proof that they oppose terrorism. First of all, the screwed-up mass media in the U.S. and elsewhere is interested only in producing shocking news, presented in a fashion to jar the attention of the casual viewer to the idiot-box. Secondly, I believe that most truly decent people, trying to make the world a better place do so by quietly working for causes that will make a significant difference in their local communities. The people who loudly demonstrate and proclaim their opposition to a particular wrong certainly make a contribution toward thwarting evil; however, people who quietly dedicate themselves to worthwhile causes also provide tremendous benefit to the world.

[Johanna]

It’s getting worse as we speak.

Ann Coulter, you evil hatecrime monger, shut the fuck up. What sick perversion of “Christianity” are you spewing? Any more of this and I’ll have to start a Pit thread.

How much worse can it get? I remember in India when Indira Gandhi was assassinated, for a week or so it was open season on any Sikh found anywhere by Hindu lynch mobs. Sikhs were attacked, beaten, and in several cases murdered. Is that what you patriotic vigilantes want? Is that how you honor the memory of the innocent victims of this violence? By harming more of your fellow Americans?

[jshore]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sqweels *

I am a Protestant of Irish descent. Last week I focused my rage on those Irish Protestants who were attacking those Catholic schoolgirls.

Well, as much as I respect what you did, I have to say that I personally didn’t hear about it on the news. Ergo, it did not happen. Ergo most of you Irish Protestants must be violent thugs or sympathetic of violent thugs.

Seriously, as others have noted, it is very hard to get from the media a clear picture of what fraction of a group of people feel a certain way or even are speaking out a certain way on some issue.

[El_Kabong]

With acts of repression against Muslims in the US apparently on the rise, we get this helpful advice from columnist Ann Coulter (who she?):

“People who want our country destroyed live here, work for our airlines, and are submitted to the exact same airport shakedown as a lumberman from Idaho. This would be like having the Wehrmacht immigrate to America and work for our airlines during World War II. Except the Wehrmacht was not so bloodthirsty.”

and:

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”

:(:(

Meanwhile, I’ve had CNN on in the background from 7AM till now, and in all their wall-to-wall coverage of the attacks there has been not one mention of acts of repression against muslims here. They could spend a few minutes perhaps helping to calm the passions, and IMO are dropping the ball.

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
I made an assertion regarding the views of Islam, for which I, operating on a public access computer, did not provide a cite to the site on which I had reviewed the “mainstream” Islamic stance on jihad. Nor will I now – you have at least as much access to search engines as I; educate yourself on it. In sum, however, a jihad under traditional (I believe Sunni) views is a war engaged for defensive reasons when Muslims or their right to practice their faith have been harmed. It may be continued to offensive status only under stringent circumstances which I do not recall the full details of, but which amount to “when it’s necessary for one’s continued safety/freedom not to merely defend but to eradicate the strength of those oppressing Islam or Muslims.”

I am not disputing whether what you say does indeed represent “mainstream” Islam (using the term “mainstream” to represent the predominant position, or the position of most people). Rather, what the correct interpretation of Islamic theology is.

I trust you would not find fault with my asserting that Jesus is not known to have ever commanded the bombing of abortion clinics, however He may have felt about abortion, and whatever a few lunatics may do and claim it’s in His name. It was in similar context that I made an assertion about the views of Islam as promulgated by (most of) its theologians.

Being Christian does not incline me to buy the venom of Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell as normative for my faith. Being Muslim would likewise not incline person X to buy the late Ayatollah Khomeini’s rantings as normative of his/her faith.

I would find no fault in your statements about Christianity, as you are quite knowledgeable in that area. As you clearly acknowledged that the same is not true of Islam I don’t think you can claim a “similar context” for your statements about Islam.

Obviously, being Muslim does not require Person X to buy any particular interpretation of it. (I don’t know what connection that has to this discussion).

(BTW, a bit off topic: you seem to be implying that there are Christian leaders and theologians who are supportive of abortion clinic bombings. Is this true?)

Finally, I would assert that while this board is founded on the idea of seeking out the truth and combatting ignorance of it, the expression of legitimately held viewpoints and informed opinions has never been condemned, though they are as always subject to correction by additional information.

So answer me this. Suppose there are two interpretations of some aspect of Christian theology, one of which is held by the majority of theologians, and one held by a minority. And suppose I, no Christian, but having “read up a bit” about these principles, announced that “I think I’m totally in the right in saying that” the majority position is the true one, and that the leaders or theologians who claim the other are not true religious leaders - do you think that would be out of line? Would it be a meaningful statement?

Or suppose there are two schools of thought in some aspects of physics, which some physicists maintaining one and some the other. And a non-physicist comes along and proclaims that “While I have absolutely no pretensions to being an physicist – what I do with biology is tough enough – I think I’m totally in the right in saying” that Position A is the correct one, and those physicists who maintain “Position B” are a bunch of phonies. Is this meaningful?

Are we in some agreement at this point?

It may hinge on this

my statement was prefaced by “I think…” I trust you will not object to my asserting that I am the world’s greatest expert on my opinions.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean with this. I could fill the SDMB with meaningless statements and preface them all with “I think” (“I think it is obvious that so-and-so is an idiot”, “I think I’m totally right in saying that the world is flat” etc.) and claim them all to be true statements because it is correct that I think so.

Not to belabor this point (I hate arguing semantics). In sum: If you are indeed saying definitively that those who claim that Islam sanctions this type of violence are wrong, and are falsely interpreting Islamic principles, then I think your statements are not meaningful. But if you are saying that this represents your best, semi-educated assessment of Islamic principles as you understand them, then I have no quarrel with you at all.

[Johanna]

As a student of Islam and comparative religion I am indeed saying that those who claim that Islam sanctions this type of violence are wrong, and are falsely interpreting Islamic principles. I support this statement, and the fact that it is meaningful, with every fiber of my being and my intellect.

Please visit http://www.tolerance.org/
We need the tolerance they advocate now more than ever.

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo *
Please visit http://www.tolerance.org/
We need the tolerance they advocate now more than ever.

Without retreating at all from my position, I am having second thoughts about the wisdom of having undertaken to debate it with regards to a sensitive issue at this time.

“From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more”.

[Polycarp]

Peace, Izzy.

I agree, I made assertions that are perhaps not totally substantiated, or substantiatable. First, there is always extreme disagreement here on what the will of God (if He exists) may be in any given situation. I probably had no call to assert my beliefs as to His views, but they are in accord with what I have read regarding the predominant views of at least two major faiths acknowledging Him under one name or another. (Anyone who distinguishes the Allah of Islam from the Elohim of Judaism and the God of Christianity is failing to recognize that each is an interpretation of the same entity, initial knowledge of which is derived from the same general sources.

I think those more knowledgeable than I (students of comparative religion with background in Islam) have confirmed my understanding of the stance of Islam generally and in particular the concept of jihad in relation to the terrorism addressed here.

Like you, I don’t want to drive a semantic hijack into the ground. But I think it’s effectively fighting ignorance to clarify that the faith taught by Mohammed and his followers is quite distinct from that taught by Bin Laden, Khomeini, and others who have achieved extensive press around here for vicious anti-American stances the past 20 or so years. Perusal of such sources is not hard to accomplish, and obviates our dissention regarding who may or may not be an expert on the field. If, to continue your parallel, I came across a site where physics and cosmology which I knew something of was accurately represented and which was on an .EDU domain, I would be inclined to accept physics and cosmology with which I am not familiar to be similarly accurately represented and to rely on it, despite the remote chance that it might actually be the work of some half-baked nut who was a student at that university, who bolsters his goofball theories by erroneous derivations from accurate basic knowledge. It was in that context that I represented the knowledge I had gained of Islam through sporadic reading in the past and some work I had done at the Pizza Parlor when assertions regarding Islam which I believed to be wrong were made and I, as a moderator there, went out and looked up some websites purporting to define Islamic doctrine to refute those assertions.

I would find no fault in your statements about Christianity, as you are quite knowledgeable in that area. As you clearly acknowledged that the same is not true of Islam I don’t think you can claim a “similar context” for your statements about Islam.

The “similar context” is that in such reading and research as I have done in each faith, obviously more so w/r/t Christianity, there appears to be a standard doctrinal view which is warped by radical fundamentalist activists. For example, no mainstream Christian holds the view that the U.S. should be turned into a totally Christian nation in which all legal and social decisions are made on “the basis of Biblical law.” Yet the Reconstructionist Christian movement does so advocate. My impression is that the ulama in Islam in general deprecates the militant stance taken by the fundamentalist extremists who, like Falwell and Robertson in Christianity, tend to garner the most press.

Obviously, being Muslim does not require Person X to buy any particular interpretation of it. (I don’t know what connection that has to this discussion).

As with me and liberal Anglican Christianity, adherence to a particular school of Islamic thought would require a devotee of that branch of Islam to either adhere to its precepts or renounce such adherence. When I spoke of what the overwhelming majority of most major schools of Islamic thought (according to such research and knowledge as I have, and backed up by other students of comparative religion) has to say, I would assume that Hassan Doe, typical Muslim, would be included in that overwhelming majority and not follow the Bin Laden/Iranian Shiite (does that view have a particular name?) America=Great Satan stance – just as I do not take Jodi, Joe Cool, Bunnygirl, and other Christians here as likely followers of whatever demagoguery Jerry Falwell has promulgated as “what real Christians believe” – or, on a parallel, that Jewish radical of about 20 years ago whose name I don’t recall as accurately stating the position of Chaim, Zev, and other devout Jews who post here.

(BTW, a bit off topic: you seem to be implying that there are Christian leaders and theologians who are supportive of abortion clinic bombings. Is this true?)

Randall Terry of Operation Rescue appears to be such a person, though I may be misrepresenting his views (and puddleglum or beagledave may have more accurate information than I on this.

[ronxfyre]

The religion of Islam is against violence and suicide! The problem is that our society has shown no respect to a religion that’s different than ours, and it shares the same values as the bible.The only way to stop this is to stop the violence that was inflited upon them!

[domina]

*Originally posted by sqweels *
**

The other day I attended an anti-Klan rally in St. Paul. A couple dozen guys–fellow white Protestants–dressed in Klan robes and ridiculous Nazi brownshirts were shouted down by a couple thousand liberals. Lotta liberals in Afghanistan. When I see tape of Muslim crowds chanting “death to Osama bin Laden” I’ll be convinced. **

You have to remember that in places like Afghanistan the people aren’t as free to protest as you and I are. Whatever liberals are in Afghanistan are either dead or keeping quiet so they won’t be dead.

[pantom]

Let’s see, so far we have an Indian immigrant shot dead in Mesa, AZ by someone who thought he was Middle Eastern.
Getting closer to home, my brother, sitting in a bar in Dallas, was questioned by the police because a customer called in to them about him. The cop was very apologetic, and then the bar owner had the customer thrown out, so I suppose there’s hope.
Still, this is irritating. Somehow, I don’t remember anyone saying all white people should be deported after the OKC bombing. Nor do I remember anyone killing a white person over it.
So white people, listen up: criminals are not, never have been, and never will be representative of the populations they come from. How many times do we need to repeat this?

[HairyPotter]

*Originally posted by pantom *
**Let’s see, so far we have an Indian immigrant shot dead in Mesa, AZ by someone who thought he was Middle Eastern.
Getting closer to home, my brother, sitting in a bar in Dallas, was questioned by the police because a customer called in to them about him. The cop was very apologetic, and then the bar owner had the customer thrown out, so I suppose there’s hope.
Still, this is irritating. Somehow, I don’t remember anyone saying all white people should be deported after the OKC bombing. Nor do I remember anyone killing a white person over it.
So white people, listen up: criminals are not, never have been, and never will be representative of the populations they come from. How many times do we need to repeat this? **

I would add that prejudice and discrimination provide for a self-fulfilling prophecy. Prisons and death-rows are not filled with a disproportionate number of people of color because people of color are innately “bad” people.

[whiffet]

The point made in the OP should be without question. What rational person wants to punish innocent people?

A question for Jomo Mojo, Polycarp, Pulykamell, Olentzero, Beadalin, et al: While it’s clear (from your posts and the nformation I’ve found on Islamic sites on the Web) that Islam only allows fighting with those who oppose Islam, isn’t that the nub of the whole question: is the United States, and the American way of life, opposing Islam? Bin Laden obviously thinks so, and so apparently do his supporters and many Muslims who are not as radical as Bin Laden. Does this all come down to a theologically undecidable interpretation between Bin Laden on the one hand, and moderates on the other, as to what constitutes opposing Islam, or do the Quran or Sunnah give specific guidance on how to determine when someone is actively fighting against and opposing Islam?

[Mr.Duality]

“Bigotry is no substitute for patriotism.”

Gov. Jim Geringer, R-Wyoming

[Beadalin]

whiffet, I think you should read this thread, about whether or not the Koran condones violence against non-Muslims, and under what circumstances. It’s a worthwhile read, and should answer your question.

[Beagle]

No, we do not eat our Muslim neighbo(u)rs. With thanks to Austin Powers.

How did you know I have Muslim neighbors? Are you in the white “Terry’s Electric” van down the street? Neither I, nor my neighbors, have said or done anything. No medal necessary, thanks.

But for one crank, and another sarcastic comment–NOBODY has suggested any violence against Muslims. Why GD boardniks are being told to sit tight I have no idea. Try kkk.whatever, use small words. As for Ann Coulter, she needs a tranquilizer shot into her a$$. waving arms “Me…me!, I’ll do it!” Her friend Barbara Olson was just murdered, give her a couple weeks to gain perspective.

pantom,

The “white people” comment makes you not-a-racist, how? Blanket statements don’t serve anyone well right now.

Just one question, how safe would I be walking down the street with my wife in Muslim theocracies right now, or two weeks ago? No, she won’t cover her face or shins.

I think that as a nation with over 260,000,000 opinions–and lots of constitutionally protected cranks–we are doing pretty well for having just been attacked. We will punish those responsible for violence against innocent Muslims, or whoever, and move on. Nobody is seriously proposing any Draconian domestic measures. Nor is anyone in power (or with cranial capacity) advocating violence against innocent citizens. Peace. Out.

[Cliffy]

*Originally posted by Beagle *
Just one question, how safe would I be walking down the street with my wife in Muslim theocracies right now, or two weeks ago? No, she won’t cover her face or shins.

In Saudi, Kuwait, and Jordan, just to name a few, you’d be perfectly fine. But of course, if you take even two seconds to think about it, you’ll realize that that’s completely irrelevant.

–Cliffy

[Beagle]

*Originally posted by Cliffy *
**

*Originally posted by Beagle *
Just one question, how safe would I be walking down the street with my wife in Muslim theocracies right now, or two weeks ago? No, she won’t cover her face or shins.

In Saudi, Kuwait, and Jordan, just to name a few, you’d be perfectly fine. But of course, if you take even two seconds to think about it, you’ll realize that that’s completely irrelevant.
–Cliffy **

Only irrelevant if you take the one statement out of context. I was merely pointing out there are violent people everywhere. As for your assertion I would be safe in those countries, maybe, maybe not. Are they “theocracies?” If not, drive through.