Don't be such a Jerk, Ukulele Ike

The BBQ Pit
101

OxyMoron, you can drop the “Oxy” part of your name if you think our preference/rule/whatever was just “announced” to everyone we know as a “do exactly as we require or we’ll cut you off at the knees.”

Why is it that people automatically assume the worst? Obviously the message was delivered in a manner consistent with the relationship. The friends we trust to respect our wishes were informed of our desires in a polite and friendly way, while the acquaintances and family members who we know are likely to deliberately contemn them were warned in clear and uncertain terms.

102

I suspect zev’s rules are about what his children may use, not about what other people may give them. There is a difference in how it comes across, in part because having a rule about what people may give you as a gift seems to imply that there is some requirement to give a gift. Even in your example of a wishlist, there’s a difference between-

" We’d like books you liked as a child- subject to our ‘no disney’ rule"

vs

" We’d like books you liked as a child, especially non-Disney ones"

103

That’s right. I don’t think it’s a big deal. Yes, I think it’s trivial.

A religious belief is one thing, but telling all of the kid’s friends’ mothers that junior isn’t allowed to see Disney movies or play with Mickey Mouse toys seems bizarre.

It’s a problem that would probably solve itself in time, though, when the other parents simply say that don’t want the kid coming over any more if lee is going to set the rules as to what will go on in someone else’s house.

104

Rysdad, please find where it was said that we were setting rules on what goes on in other people’s houses.

doreen, please stop putting words in our mouths. The way lee and I have discussed this issue with the various potential gift givers may vary from the way it has been presented here.

105

No they do not own the WB.

The show was not produced by Warner Brothers, it was more than likely produced by Disney (or ABC, or one of their affiliates) and sold to the WB.

It’s analagous to The Cosby Show. Bill Cosby and the cast were not paid by NBC. They were paid by Carsey-Werner Productions. NBC paid Carsey-Werner for the show, who then hired the cast, produced the show, then paid the actors and crew, leaving some for their own pockets.

Make sense?

106

KellyM, my only evidence of how you or the OP present things is how you are doing it in this forum.

107

Some religious beliefs seem bizzare to me. I don’t tell other parents they should change those beliefs, though, just because I don’t agree with them. And I certainly don’t think that making it easier for your kids to conform to the majority is a valid reason to change those beliefs. I might question the beliefs, and discuss the reasons behind them, and discuss why I do or don’t agree with them, but that’s something else entirely.

Also, note that none of us is saying we’ll forbid the child to play with Disney toys in some other house, or tell any other parent how they should conduct things in their family. You’re assuming that “No Disney in this house” means “I’ll follow my child everywhere and make sure they never see any.” It’s not the same thing. No Disney in the house means just that–no Disney in this house. When kids run into it in other places, and question it, the answer is, “Different families do different things. We don’t do that, and here’s why.” I’m speaking from experience, here–it’s not that hard. There’s no reason to announce it to anyone else’s mom unless they’re calling to ask what a suitable birthday gift might be, in which case I usually say something like “She loves Hello Kitty, and anything to do with horses, but we’re not very big Disney fans,” or whatever seems most appropriate, depending on the individual situation. And whatever comes, the giver is thanked, and it’s important to me, anyway, that my kids understand that no matter what they think about any given present, it is a gesture of generosity that deserves gratitude. End of problem.

Besides, very small children are likely playing with their mothers’ friends kids, in which case these issues likely won’t be a problem. By the time they’re choosing schoolfriends they want to play with themselves, there’s probably already been some conversation on the topic, and the kids pretty much understand what the deal is.

Once again, none of us ever said we were trying to set the rules in any other house. You’re taking the basic statement and assuming things way beyond what was actually said.

Kids will eventually run into all kinds of things that I don’t think it’s appropriate for them to be exposed to right now. That doesn’t mean I should just throw up my hands and pop a porn video in, because they’ll find out about it sometime anyway. It means that I need to prepare them in advance, and teach them what I think is important and why, so that when they do run into it, they have a basis for evaluating it. I’d prefer that basis not be formed by Disney, myself, so I manage things in my home accordingly. Other parents are free to do so, as well, in whatever way they think best. It means learning to respect the beliefs of others, even if I or my kids don’t understand them, but that’s something I think is important, so I try to teach it to my kids–without compromising my other beliefs.

108

(Oxy)Moron, you made an unwarranted assumption and don’t want to be called on it? This is the Pit, you know.

What in the world makes you think that we use the same tone and diction when flaming people in the Pit as we do when we talk politely with our friends?

109

Well apparently (per the OP) you warned the grandparents about the Disney rule.

Those were the people specifically mentioned in the OP.

110

Amen to that.
lee, KellyM, let me point out the nature of public posting. Other people may and do have differing opinions. You can acknowledge and move on, or come across as an uptight ass. Like the kind of person who lays down rules for gifts. And this example is really galling.

Originally posted by KellyM

There’s a world of difference between violating a religious belief and a preference in entertainment. However, considering how you and lee seem to debate, I shouldn’t be surprised.

111

I agree with Rysdad. Your child (and mine) is much more at risk from the violent trash that they release from prison every day in every state than being hurt by Disney. Your child (and mine) is VERY much more at risk of being killed in an auto accident (50,000 dead every year in US, hundreds of thousands injured) than being hurt by Disney. Or McDonald’s. Or MTV. Or Eminem.

I was brought up with a huge Disney influence and I turned out O…wait…never mind. just read the first paragraph.

112

But it isn’t your child, djf, and it is not your place to tell others how to raise their children.

113

I don’t believe I put any words in your mouth.I gave two alternate ways to express a preference, to show the difference in effect. The way you’ve discussed it with potential gift givers may very well vary from how you’ve presented it here, and I made no assumption about how you presented it to them. Here, you presented it as a rule and here is where you’re asking why your rules are not acceptable and zev’s are. And the answer is in part because zev isn’t here talking about his rules for other people giving his children gifts. When he comes here and says he’s warned people about giving unacceptable gifts to his children (rather than expressed his preferences or informed them of religious prohibitions), he’ll get the same response you’re getting about having a gift-giving rule (as opposed to a no Disney in the house rule- they’re not the same thing- one can graciously accept a gift and donate or otherwise dispose of it). You haven’t shown any reason to think he even has such rules ,rather than rules for what his children may have or use.

114

Sigh. I should know to expect verbal quibbling from doreen.

115

KellyM, I don’t buy the pit-is-different excuse under far better circumstances than this.

It’s especially unwarranted here. The problem is that the OP’s basic premise - telling people what gifts to give - is fundamentally rude, regardless of how noble the justifications. Yes, people do “wish lists” and bridal registries and such, but there are - or used to be, and should again be - strict rules for keeping them in check (for example, a bride and groom are never to announce themselves where they are registered unless directly asked, and even then a flustered look is the most gracious reply).

In the cross-referenced thread, the OP made the following pronouncement:

*. That phrasing betrays a sense of entitlement so obnoxious that it justifies my presumption that the OP is generally obnoxious, and neither she nor you has done anything to disavow that obnoxiousness. I mean, i]so warned?? Goodness, that’s truly vile. Stating that you don’t like Disney is one thing, and certainly one’s parents should pick up on that. One is entitled to be peeved if they don’t. But issuing a commandment is so generally forward, presumptuous, and uncivil that the grandparents would do better to disown the brat they’ve raised.

That you are defending her brattiness leads me to believe that you’re a brat, too, unless you establish otherwise.

116

I still don’t get it. I still don’t understand how Disney holds such a high status on your shit list. What is so different with the animation between Disney and other cartoons? Why have you singled out Disney to blame for the ‘degradation of tastes’?

I’m NOT criticising your right to bring up your child in any way you see fit. I DO think your idealism will be modified when the child becomes a part of the big wide world. This is not meant to be arrogant or condescending, and if you DO manage to stick to your guns, then kudos to you. Perhaps you could write a book and tell the rest of us (who failed in our attempts to keep our kids’ lives untainted by crass commercialism) how it is done.

Just enjoy your kid, and try not to sweat the stuff that really doesn’t matter in the long run*. He/she will remember having relaxed and loving parents long after the Disney toy has ended up in the rubbish bin. :slight_smile:

*Again, if you think Disney IS such a major issue, can you please elucidate why, 'cos I still don’t get it.

117

Well, my case is a bit different, I think.

Firstly, most of the people who will be giving my kids gifts already have a pretty good idea of what is acceptable and what is not.

Secondly, my kids know that certain gifts may be inappropriate for them because of our religious beliefs. They already know that if one of their non-religious relatives (or anyone else, for that matter) gives them food that they have to check with myself, my wife, my parents or in-laws, or someone else they know they can trust with regard to whether or not the item is kosher. And they understand that they may or may not be able to eat it.

In addition, like most parents, my wife and I have our personal preferences. There are certain types of toys that we’re not crazy about the idea of our kids having. It’s one thing if someone gives them one of these items unawares. It’s another when the giver (and this goes for anyone, including my parents and in-laws) knowingly gives a gift that they know we don’t want our kids to have. There is nothing wrong with parents having some control over what their kids can and cannot have and can and cannot do.

Of course, as the child gets older he or she should be given more lattitude with regard to the things that he or she can or cannot have.

In any event, my kids also know that if someone gives them something that they should not have, they know that they should not make the giver feel bad, but should either politely accept and let us know later in private, or politely decline (while saying thank you).

Zev Steinhardt

118

[QUOTEAlso, note that none of us is saying we’ll forbid the child to play with Disney toys in some other house, or tell any other parent how they should conduct things in their family. You’re assuming that “No Disney in this house” means “I’ll follow my child everywhere and make sure they never see any.” It’s not the same thing. No Disney in the house means just that–no Disney in this house. When kids run into it in other places, and question it, the answer is, “Different families do different things. We don’t do that, and here’s why.”

Are you going to follow the child’s inevitable question with, “Because I said so,” or are you going to respond as I suggested earlier with copyright maintenance and mommy-hating tripe?

It wasn’t hard to extrapolate, though.

**

Surely, you’re not trying to equate Disney with porn. Absurd analogy.

I see. If Disney is involved, then you’d be incapable of preparing your kids to think for themselves, since Disney is so deeply into brainwashing.

I hope there aren’t any other areas like this that garner such a ridiculous amount of attention in your lives, or else your kids may become known as, “Billy…you know, the one with the nutty, obsessive mom.”

119

For what it’s worth, I respect lee’s (and any parents’) right to try to restrict their children from seeing/experiencing certain things. I respect their right to try. I would also say (as a parent for almost 10 years now, with three daughters), that many such attempts are doomed to failure, especially with something as pervasive as Disney.

It is in this spirit which I read Ukulele Ike’s post. I don’t think he was denying or disrespecting lee’s rights as a parent… I think he was poking fun at the fairly unrealistic stance lee was taking on the subject of absolute restriction. It is an attitude which many expectant parents (including myself) started out with. Parents can try to keep their child away from religion, entertainment, junk food, or green salamanders, but the likelihood of their success is fairly low, realistically. Ukulele Ike’s post was a mildly snarky jibe which suggested nothing more than this: lee is suffering from the naivete typical of many expectant parents. As such, lee’s response is a pretty serious overreaction.

The issue of gift-giving is an interesting one, and partially seperate. I recently wrestled with a similar problem, detailed in this thread. To sum it up, my wife and I are both pretty solidly agnostic. My mother is a recently-converted Christian, and she sends both me and my children religious gifts – Bibles, childrens Bibles, books about “the true meaning of Easter,” prayer bunnies, etc. This sometimes bothers me, since I don’t share that faith. However, I know that my mother is giving these gifts out of love. I’ve decided to not challenge or confront her on the issue, because it would only hurt her and make her feel bad.

I think it’s wrong to make others feel bad for giving a gift that comes from their heart. What you do with that gift is your choice, but limiting the gifts that others are allowed to give is just hurtful, and is bound to cause friction.

In an interesting result, we’ve found that one of my daughters has expressed interest in attending Catholic Church services… something about that faith resonates for her. The other doesn’t seem interested at all. So, thanks partially to my mother’s gifts and partially to our willingness to allow them to experience them and discuss them, we’ve discovered something new about our children.

I think that with anything to do with kids, and particularly entertainment, you can’t let it exist in a vacuum. Whether you let them watch Disney or not doesn’t really matter. Whether you’re there with them to experience and discuss it with them is the key. I’ve had many iteresting discussions with my kids about Disney movies, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, the “Unfortunate Events” series of books, Neil Gaiman’s “Coraline,” and many other vehicles of entertainment. I treasure them all, and I’ve learned things about my kids because of them.

I do respect your decision, lee, and with that respect in mind, I encourage you to question it. I encourage you to re-evaluate it, and I encourage you to think about some of the things you could learn about your child as a result of such things.

Speaking about Disney in particular, I’m of two minds about it. Much of modern Disney is abhorrent in many ways to me. I hated Pocahontas and Hunchback of Notre Dame with a passion, for example. My kids know I dislike it, and they dislike some of the same things about it. However, I would never expect them to feel the same way as I do. Also, I really enjoyed Emperor’s New Groove and Atlantis. They’re good films, and me and the girls all like watching them. Though the Pixar films are only arguably “Disney” movies, I find that those are worthy films, too, and I really enjoy watching Toy Story or Monsters Inc. with them now and again. And then there’s Fantasia and Fantasia 2000, which are a couple of my personal favorites. To me, these are cultural experiences that should not be missed. I don’t force my girls to watch them, but I’m happy to say that they like them almost as much as I do.

The point here is that I wonder if you’re not being a little harsh in your criticism of Disney movies. I agree that some of them are crap, and I think the Disney marketing machine is an unfettered monster. However, Disneyland can be a fun place, for a day, and some of the films are really quite good. Try to get over the Disney label and see them for their own individual merits (or flaws).

In the end, I think lee overreacted pretty badly to a harmless joke from an experienced parent to a naive parent-to-be. More than that, though, I think lee could stand to examine the preconceptions she has formed of Disney. If she sticks by her decision, I respect that. She has every right to set the rules in her house, with her kids. Any belief, however, should be able to stand up to a bit of scrutiny, and I encourage her to re-examine those beliefs before setting limitations on her childrens’ experiences. Just a thought…

120

You’re right, but don’t we already have enough obnoxious neurotic people in the world? They are going to make another one.

I can understand their hatred of all things Disney (although I don’t agree that Disney is so bad-Viacom is the devil on earth) but they are going overboard with this “don’t give anything Disney” gift business.

CUBBY!
KAREN!
ROY!
JIMMY!