kabbes, I really fail to see anything “holier-than-thou” about my statements. I don’t look down on those who eat fish, or poultry, or meat in general. I don’t really care what anyone eats. It does make life harder for vegetarians when someone claims to be vegetarian while happily eating a fish fillet or a box of chicken nuggets. Like yosimitebabe and pennylane have pointed out, it blurs the definition of a word that most non-vegetarians already don’t understand. I have been to dinners where the host was highly offended that I wouldn’t eat the fish entree, “because every vegetarian I know eats fish”. That’s why I wish that people who eat some kinds of meat wouldn’t call themselves vegetarain. That’s all.
This is my fault-I asked about semi-vegetarianism.
I think my post got misinterpreted. First of all I’d like to say to Kabbes, I’m glad you calmed down, after I read your first couple of posts, I was convinced you had forgotten to take your daily valium 
Yosemitebabe basically nipped what I was trying to say in the bud. I don’t have a problem with people who eat chiken or fish claiming to be vegetarian in resteraunts for the sake of ease in ordering. I do the same thing, as a vegan instead of saying i’m vegan (I tend to get very little sympathy from servers, and i’ve on more than one occasion found something to have dairy in it because the server didn’t bother to check on something for a “fussy eater”) I tell people I’m vegetarian and allergic to dairy in resteraunts. You better believe they check then. No one wants a lawsuit.
What would make me angry is if your claim to be vegetarian is followed by your ordering a chicken or fish dish. Because if I end up with that same server and fail to tell my allergy story I might get something with chicken broth in it because “hey, that vegetarian who was in here before you ate chicken!”
The second thing I take issue with is when people who are not truly vegetarians go around boasting that they are and that they do, in fact, eat chicken and fish. For the reason I stated above. Why confuse people unnecessarily? If you eat chicken and fish why don’t you just say you don’t eat red meat? How hard is that? You’ll get your dietary needs across without making things difficult for those of us who truly are vegetarian or vegan.
I am not telling anyone what they can or cannot eat. I hate it when people give me grief for being a vegan. Five years of turkey jokes on thanksgiving and my family still thinks they’re funny. I resent being called a hypocrite when all I am trying to do is prevent people from mispresenting themselves at my expense. And believe me, when someone brags about being a vegetarian then tells people that they eat fish or chicken, it is indeed at my and all the other real vegetarian and vegans’ expense. So please, for our sake, just say you don’t eat red meat.
Wow, this is so fun. I love it when people break out the dictionaries to explain their personal choices. Just thought that you would all like to know that Apu thinks you are horrible people for eating dairy…
Also, am I a horrible person because I sometimes pretend to be a vegetarian when I don’t want to eat meat, even though <gasp!> somebody might later see me eating a steak with blood dripping out of it? I’m cool about being a horrible person, but until you actually get official trademarked armbands and a secret handshake, I don’t think you can get too uppity about “pretenders” on your turf.
But that’s just one man’s opinion. Of course, it’s the correct opinion. 
Tenebras
Oh, give me a frickin’ break. We have explained, and explained and explained it, ad nauseum.
You (I assume) have read this thread so far, you already know what’s going on. So, I can only assume that you are purposely misinterpreting our motivations. It’s not about being “uppity”, it’s about you spreading disinformation and confusing people, because you really don’t give a damn. You don’t give a damn that people like you make it far more difficult for the rest of us. La-de-dah, you go around, spreading disinformation, for your own convenience, and guess who ends up having to suffer for it? Not you. Guess who has to exhaustively explain that “No, Tenebras really isn’t a veggie, he just told you that for his own reasons, and no, he does not represent vegetarianism.” Yeah, the rest of us do. Gee, thanks a lot for that.
So, I don’t especially appreciate that we don’t want you spreading misinformation. If that makes you think I’m “uppity”, because I don’t like how you are willfully confusing people at my expense - well then, phooey. :rolleyes:
Well, that was a mangled sentence. It should read:
Perception is reality.
Just because you choose to have a fucked up diet, don’t blame everyone else for not knowing every detail about it. Why do you get so offended because someone says another vegetarian they know eats chicken. Just say, “that’s nice, but I don’t”. It’s no different than asking why bodybuilder A eats fruit but bodybuilder B doesn’t. Don’t harp on other people because you decided to do something different than what the vast majority of others do and then are puzzled why we don’t understand it all.
So for the second time, for our impaired readers…
According to the dictionary.com definition that someone posted, a vegetarian is someone who practices a diet of vegetarianism, which in turn, was defined as a diet composed primarily of fruits, veggies, whole grains, etc. The word primarily, as opposed to the word exclusivey, opened the door for chicken, fish, even red meat to be a part of a vegetarian diet. So it’s far from out of whack for someone to ask if you eat chicken or fish as a vegetarian. Vegetarians in California are not the say all end all on what defines a group of people.
So the question then becomes, at what amount of animal muscle or tissue, since we don’t count eggs or dairy, does a vegetarian become a non vegetarian?
Maybe the vegetarians should get ID cards to make it easier for everyone.
Well, now that you have made it abundantly clear that you think vegetarian is a “fucked up diet”, we can take your opinion with all the respect and seriousness it deserves. :rolleyes:
And I might add, the reason other people don’t know every detail about it is because people spread misinformation! So who is to blame for that? Not the people with the “fucked up diet”, it’s the clueless yahoos who don’t really give a damn either way.
And while I’m at it, why the hell DO you seem to care so much about what the definition of vegetarianism is anyway? What’s it to you? You are not a veggie, you don’t want to be one, so why do you care? Why do you want to redefine it?
For the reading impaired - it’s not about us “harping” on people who eat chicken or fish for eating chicken or fish. It’s us not wanting them to misrepresent themselves as something they are NOT. They can still eat whatever they damned well want, no problems from me.
You are making a big leap there. Just because the word “primarily” is used in one dictionary definition, it does not follow that the “door is opened” to all meat products. Where exactly in that sparse dictionary definition is the mention of meat, anyway? How do you know for sure that vegetarianism can indeed include meat products? Just because (for whatever bizarre reason I cannot fathom) you seem to want vegetarianism to include meat in the diet, doesn’t make it so. At least not in the whole of the USA, at the very least. The major, mainstream vegetarian societies do not include fish or chicken in the vegetarian diet. Vegetarian Times, the most popular and mainstream magazine in the USA, does not acknowledge fish or chicken as part of vegetarianism. Every vegetarian cookbook and restaurant (of any merit) I’ve stumbled across does not include fish or chicken in their recipes. This is the mainstream understanding, it’s a reality. And just because you, Oblong, don’t like it, doesn’t mean it will go away.
And, I might ask again, why the hell do you specifically care? It’s just a “fucked up diet” to you anyway. So why should you care if we’d prefer that the people who eat fish or chicken just explain that, rather than calling themselves vegetarians? What exactly is your stake in this whole thing, anyway? What do you get out of it? The rest of us vegetarians have made it very clear what our stake is - we experience trouble, confusion and strife because of the misinformation being spread. But why, exactly, do you care about the specific definition of our “fucked up diet”?
[quote]
Oblong: Just because you choose to have a fucked up diet
[quote]
You don’t want a rational discussion, or even a hearty pit rant. You’re playing “bait the vegetarians”. Shoo. Go gnaw a bone. Run along, now.
[/QUOTE]
Sigh. Yes, I horked the coding.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yosemitebabe *
**
What about the misinformation your fellow veggie Satori posted earlier in the thread?
Could you copy and paste any statements Satori made on this thread? Because I can’t find anything written by him/her.
What about it, milroyj? Yes, there are vegetarians who spread misinformation too. So? That entitles meat-eaters to spread as much and whatever kind of misinformation they want?
Oblong, you are either misunderstanding the concept of vegetarianism, or you are of the opinion that all words are meaningless and interchangeable. Yes, a vegetarian is one who follows a primarily vegetarian diet (according to some dictionary definitions, a fully vegetarian diet). Is the principle clear? Someone who eats chicken and fish is not vegetarian. Someone who tries to avoid meat but occasionally gives in to the pressure of family members on Thanksgiving and has a bit of turkey - well, that’s debatable. In my opinion he is still vegetarian. Or at least, as yosemitebabe said, he is vegetarian for the duration that he didn’t eat meat. Am I still a non-smoker even though I smoke once every four months?
People who become vegetarian for health reasons often will not follow the diet as strictly as those who are vegetarian for moral or religious reasons. They will be more inclined to make exceptions here and there. The point is that they (and those around them) should know that a vegetarian diet does not include fish and poultry. Fish and poultry are still meat. That, I hope, is not debatable.
The reason I used the term fucked up is because of all the confusion it is causing and to keep in the spirit of The Pit and not Great Debates. Nothing personal against vegetarians, I really don’t care about the diet. I know I can use a more vegetarian diet. That’s all that was meant by it. This the The Pit and not Great Debates so I threw that in there to be a dickhead.
What else can possibly be inferred by that definition other than meat?
I’m basing my whole argument on that definition, which was posted here already when I first read this thread. That definition includes the possibility that some vegetarians can still be called that while eating meat. Therefore it’s rude for non meat eating vegs to go after them. If you don’t agree to that definition, then that’s that. End of discussion. But as long as that definition is out there, then the perception will continue to be that. Dictionary.com got that from somewhere so it’s still a popularly held opinion.
Perception is reality and you are the one who has to deal with it, not me. Veggie Times and any other group can put out the word but chances are, it won’t reach the target audience so it’s not going to go away.
Well, the reason I don’t know every detail about it is because what people I know eat and don’t eat varies from person to person regardless of if they use a word like “vegetarian.”
I know strict vegans.
I know vegans who eat honey (which is technically not a vegan thing to do).
I know vegetarians who eat eggs but not dairy
I know vegetarians who eat dairy but not eggs
I know vegetarians who eat both eggs and dairy
I know vegetarians who are allergic to other foods - wheat comes to mind, or some dairy, but they can eat some cheeses or yogurt.
I know people who sometimes (for reasons mentioned) check the vegetarian box on the invite, but they do eat fish (and generally don’t consider themselves vegetarian but its eaiser.)
I know people who are strict about their vegetarianism, and those that don’t mind chicken broth or beef broth, they just don’t want chunks (and would perfer a veggie broth).
I know people who don’t eat red meat
I know people who don’t eat pork
I know people who eat pork but not beef
I know people whose diet is best described as “practical kosher” but find it easiest just to be vegetarian in public - they will however eat a steak at home (just not a cheeseburger).
The latest is friends who have gone from vegan to eating fresh fish, organic eggs, and goat based dairy products.
And I have a whole bunch of friends with a wide range of food allergies. And a couple of just plain picky eaters.
And I do give a damn. If you come to dinner at my house (having friends with varied diets), I’ll give you the menu and give you a chance to veto it. I have barbeques and provide veggie burgers. I’ll let you pick the restaurant (even if it means that I have to eat bean burritos with soy cheese, not my favorite meal). I try very hard to keep up with the current diets of my friends - which can be difficult as some of them slide around the scale from vegan to carnivore with regularity (and others have been very consistant for twenty years in their diets).
To keep in spirit of the Pit, Oblong, what else can be inferred from your words other than that you are completely mad?
“That’s the spirit, soldier!”
I’m not completely mad… I’m completely bored on the wednesday before Thanksgiving and want to go home…
I honestly don’t really care, I’m just nitpicking.
Well, stuff yourself with turkey, Oblong, I won’t say a word.