Judging on his prior comments, I think that I can confidently say that the argument would never have existed. Oblong was responding purely to a definition that was posted. He has said that it came as a surprise to him - as indeed it did to me. But his point is that if the definition exists in any dictionary, then someone somewhere must be using it that way. In fact, sufficient someones to justify including it in a dictionary.
It’s not an unreasonable point. I still think that it is a red herring however.
Did you not read what I posted? I said, why don’t people who eat SOME kinds of meat, but not ALL kinds just say they are picky instead of a vegetarian? THAT’S ALL.
They aren’t vegetarians, because they do eat some, like poultry and/or fish. But they don’t eat pork or red meat or maybe, uh, deer or something? I don’t know.
Oblong: Hm. I think we are going in circles here. You say that people have the perception that veggies can eat fish or chicken? Well, no shit Sherlock! That’s why we have our knickers in a twist!
And as far as “being nice” about correcting this wrong information - I think I am being perfectly nice. I just want to clear things up. I don’t want to rag on anyone, or get their hackles up. You win more flies with honey than vinegar, and all. But I am quite adamant - just because someone “wishes” or “decides” that they are vegetarian, it doesn’t make them one.
And as far as why people have this incorrect perception, I think that is more complex. I think (and I suspect many other veggies will back me up on this) that people want to cling to the premise that vegetarians can indeed eat fish or fowl because it seems less…foreign to them. They are able to grasp the concept a little easier. So many times, people have asked me (when they first find out I am veggie) “But you eat fish and chicken, right?” There’s a certain eagerness in their voice as they ask this. As if they hope I eat fish or chicken, because that’s less “freaky”. So my theory is that this misinformation persists because so many people are dedicated and motivated to believe it.
As far as “what vegetarians are” - who gets to define vegetarianism? Why do people persist in believing that veggies can eat fish or chicken, when there is so much external evidence to the contrary? I mean, if it were a more mainstream concept, don’t you think Kentucky Fried Chicken or Long John Silver would want to call themselves “vegetarian friendly”? Or something like that? Why is it when I go to the store, I’ll see “vegetarian chili” (which has no animal flesh) but I don’t see “Turkey chili” labeled as “vegetarian”? And why is it that I’ve never seen a vegetarian cookbook that includes fish or chicken? (I’m not saying that there isn’t some obscure cookbook out there that includes these ingredients, but I’ve never seen one.) Why is it I’ve never seen fish or chicken served at a vegetarian restaurant? If fish and chicken is part of the “perception is reality” that you seem to be going on about, how come the vegetarian restaurants haven’t jumped on the bandwagon? And how come the health food stores I frequent don’t have any packaged veggie foods that have chicken and fish in them? How come I have never, never seen any packaged food labeled “vegetarian” that has fish or chicken in it?
I see no evidence that any veggie book, magazine, restaurant, food manufacturer is now including fish or chicken. So this misinformation isn’t coming from them. It’s coming from people who spread the wrong information, because they want it to be true.
Yeah. Vegetarianism is not well understood, as evidenced by all the threads that pop up here. The first question I usually get is “What DO you eat?”, followed by questions about fish and poultry, often followed by “Are you in some kind of cult?” :rolleyes:
It’s easier for people to wrap their brains around the concept of not eating red meat, because it’s familiar. Almost everyone knows someone, family member, friend, coworker, who’s been advised by their doctor to cut down on red meat because of high cholesterol or blood pressure. Pop health magazines and TV reports extoll the virutes of replacing red meat with fish or chicken, supermarket shelves abound with turkey ham and turkey bacon. The concept of “no meat at all” is scarier. Unless you know a vegetarian or have tried out vegetarian recipes, I can see how someone might think it was all salad and this mysterious ingredient known as tofu. There’s also the perception among meat-eaters that vegetarians, just by being vegetarians, are criticizing the meat-eater’s ethics and way of life. If they think that vegetarians eat fish and/or poultry, then that perception of criticism is lessened.
Who defines “vegetarian”? Well, the majority of vegetarians and vegetarian organizations/publications agree that a “vegetarian” is one who does not eat animal flesh or products made from animal flesh, and a “vegan” is one who eats no animal products at all. Beyond that, there may be dissent, but not on the definition of the word.
Wouldn’t that definition make most people vegitarians?
I know quite a few vegitarians, and the are, for the most part, fine people. It kinda sucks going to restaurants with 'em though. Picky people, I’m telling ya.
I still don’t understand why you feel as if this thread is a personal insult against you or any member of your family. Calm down will ya? I never said that your wife or mother or anyone in your family stopped eating red meat to boast about being a vegetarian. Especially since from what I got from your post, it was not a decision they were happy to make. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some people out there who DO “boast” about being a vegetarian when they aren’t even what they claim to be. You can’t deny that they’re out there. These are the people I speak of. All I am saying is if they DO eat chicken and/or fish, they are not vegetarian. They don’t eat red meat. It really is that simple.
I too have been greated with the “what DO you eat?” to which I always respond “food.” And asking if I’m part of a cult. Puh-leese. I feel that it is insecurity on the questioner’s part. They feel as if I am somehow attacking the way they eat by not eating it myself. Maybe they’re looking for justification, who knows. They always ask “but you DO eat chicken and fish?” with more than a hint of hopefulness. I actually find myself reassuring many meat eaters that it’s okay for them to eat meat, if that’s what they choose. They usually back off then. It’s a shame I have soothe their insecurities just so they leave me alone though.
I am an equal-opportunity food consumer. With that said, I have encountered some militant vegetarians. Why do you think I should treat animals with dignity and respect(which I do) when you won’t treat me with dignity and respect?
I will stop being insulted when people stop typing insulting things.
Don’t think that you can get away with saying something offensive and then hide behind a mask of innocence. “But I didn’t mean to be offensive” just doesn’t cut it.
You want to call people who simply eat no red meat and no poultry “picky eaters”? You want to talk of “wannabe” vegetarians “boasting” of being vegetarian? You want to generally act in a way that insults my loved ones? Then frankly I don’t give a fuck if you don’t even realise how obnoxious you are being. Because you’re still being obnoxious.
Here’s a nice, easy, simple way to look at it. I am refering to a certain type of people. Because they DO exist. I don’t care how hard you try to argue it, if you are not one of them, yay, good for you, I’m glad because neither am I. But you can’t say that just because you or your family isn’t like this that there are no people on earth that ARE. If you or your family are not this type of people, then I am not refering to you. Why don’t you go knaw on a steak, pretend it’s my head and calm the fuck down.
Kabbes - I gotta say, I see where lezlers is coming from.
Just because some people claim to be part of a certain group - it doesn’t mean they are representative of the group, or that they are not worthy of derision.
I am a vegetarian, I am what I am. I do not “boast” about my diet, nor do I consider myself a “picky eater”. (I am not exactly thin, if you get my drift. No one is ever going to buy that I am a “picky eater”! )
However, I do know people that become veggies so they can “boast”. Maybe it’s an American phenomenon, because vegetarianism isn’t so common here. People like to be “unique”, and vegetarianism sure is that around here. Granted, these so-called vegetarians don’t usually stick to it too long (if “sticking to it” can even apply to what they do) but they do claim to be veggie. They sometimes do it in order to look “cool”, or “rebellious”. (“It’ll really kill Aunt Edna that I no longer will eat her pot roast! And yeah! I can preach a sanctimonious sermon to her too! Vegetarianism sounds fabulous!”)
Some people dabble with vegetarianism because they assign too much importance to their diet. They have “food issues”, and vegetarianism is just one more thing in a long line of diets they’ve tried. And so (because they have “food issues”) they will tell everyone (“boast”) about their new diet. And next month they’ll boast about their all-protein diet. And on and on. And there are many other reasons someone might start down a veggie path, without the knowledge or commitment to do it with the right spirit. (And the “right spirit” would be - to not be a pain in the ass, and for personal and sincere reasons.)
What lezlers describes is not unheard of, but it certainly does not describe me, lezlers, pennylane, VeraGemini, pldennison, OpalCat, your SO, or a variety of other sincere veggies. And it is obvious (to me, at least) that it was never intended to describe veggies like us.
Yes to whatever was question posed to me earlier, I don’t exactly remmeber it but I remember thinking “Yes” and the follow up poster had my thoughts exactly.
If I had never seen that definition then I would have assumed that vegetarians didn’t eat fish or poultry.
I do know a couple of people who experimented with vegetarianism in the same way some people experiment with religion. It was just a phase in their life.
But as I said, I don’t really care or have an interest in changing anybody’s mind. You could have substituted the words but kept the general concept and I still would have argued.
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