And don’t give me that weak ass tightwad BS, when I get decent (yes thats right just decent) service I’m a 25% tipper. **
[/QUOTE]
Well, then what are you FUSSING for? You OBVIOUSLY aren’t the type of person we are talking about.
((((yeah yeah,dangling preps everywhere,sorry)))
Ah, but what of the conundrum of THE BUFFET?
You have a waitress. She comes to assure you are getting the buffet. She brings you drinks. She makes sure all is OK. And she brings you your bill.
But you get your own food.
What then?
Do you dial down the tip percentage from 15-20 to 10?
In the case of the buffet, taxes and tipout are still based on sales total, so I consider 15% still a suitable tip. You only mentioned: taking the order, bringing the drinks and the bill. You didn’t mention: drink refills (this is huge), taking away the dirty plates, bringing extra napkins, any salad dressing that wasn’t on the buffet, etc. etc.
Agreed.
I have withheld a tip (actually, given a poor tip) for bad service. But I count myself with the ‘If you don’t have enough to tip, you don’t have enough to eat out’ crowd. If ordering a pizza is a treat you have to save up for, save a little longer for the tip.
First, a quibble with the aforementioned second law, you’re including kitchen mistakes with bad service. I don’t, depending on how the server handles it, so let’s only focus on non-kitchen error bad service.
But I’m hava a major disagreement with you on the above point: I have no obligation to help you improve. I haven’t “robbed” you of anything if I choose not to waste my time trying to correct surly, discourteous service. If the server has already ruined dinner, why should I spend a minute or two more (at least) trying to help them improve. I’m a manager: my job is to help my employees improve their work. I’ll be damned if I do it for free (or a pittance like a free appetizer), especially when I read that a manager you describe as “great” gets off on “telling customers off”. :rolleyes: There’s an example to set. Politely refusing to cave in to unreasonable demands, fine. Firmly standing behind and vouching for a serviceperson he observed doing a good job? Ok. “Telling customers off”? Not so much.
I mean, I’ve just spent the last hour fighing with the server trying to get my water refilled, trying to get him/her to bring me the ketchup, trying to get the check and now you imply that there’s some sort of obligation where I’m required to do Quality Assurance for a manager who apparently can’t be bothered to do so on his/her own? AND I run the risk of “getting told off”? No way. (Plus, I assure you that if I am going to do quality assurance on a server, I’ll expect a hell of a lot more than getting comp’d on the zucchini fritters.)
It’s not “passive agressive” to leave a penny tip, any more than a boss, deducting an hour of pay for the day one showed up late is “passive agressive”. I have no duty to confront a server or their manager about crap service
The server’s obligation is to make sure that my water’s kept filled, that I get the condiments I want, to take my order and get me my check in a timely fashion, to verify that my food’s ok, to let me know if there’s any problem that’ll delay things and to do so pleasantly and professionally. My obligation is to tip a at least 15% if these conditions are met, more than that if they’re exceeded. If they’re not, I have no obligation to help in uptraining. While it may (or may not) take a village to raise a child, it certainly doesn’t take a village to train a food-server.
Fenris
PS: We’re in firm agreement on the “you tip on the price of the pre-discount, pre-tax meal”. I had a grandma who, while the sweetest lady around, never got the hang of tipping (my grandpa used to do it, and after he died, she never quite figured it out. Plus she invariably used coupons and left a 10% tip on the post coupon price!) so when she’d take me out for dinner (she insisted on paying) I’d invariablly have to “forget my glasses” or something to rush back to the table to make up the difference.
Since I’m the “smug asshole” who brought up physics, please tell me, Audrey Levins, where exactly I said waiting tables looks easier than it is. Go ahead, scan the thread. I’ll wait here.
Back already? Good. Show me that quote. What’s that? You can’t find it? Maybe if you took that chip off your shoulder, you could look around a little better. I’ll let you in on a secret, though: You won’t find that quote from me in here. Because I never said it. So let’s keep the insulting generalities to a minimum, shall we?
I will restate my position for the record, since it seems to be getting overlaid with idiocy from other posters who shall go unnamed: I have no problem tipping. I usually tip at least 15 percent for decent service. The one place I eat on even a semi-regular basis, many of the servers know me and seem genuinely happy to see me. So I don’t think I fall into the “bad tipper” category.
My beef is with those who say “You owe me 15 percent of the meal’s cost regardless of the service level. If you don’t pay that, you’re a tightwad. Oh, and twofer coupons don’t count when figuring the tip.”
Here’s a newsflash. I will be in your establishment for lunch or dinner maybe once every five or six months. You will have no way of knowing beforehand if I’m a good or a bad tipper. That depends entirely on you. (I know, I know, you have an eidetic memory and will automatically know who I am the instant I step back in the door after a six-month absence. Woe is me.) If I tip badly, it’s because your service was crappy. (Actually, your service will have to be really crappy. I bring a book with me when I eat out most of the time, and I will interact with the server only when they actually stop at the table. I will go upwards of 20 minutes before realizing my drink is empty. So if your service is bad enough for me to notice, it’s pretty damn bad.) If I tip well, it’s because you provided decent service.
If this situation is too difficult or stressful for you, then I will not enjoy my meal and you will not get a good tip. If you have the attitude that I’m required to tip at least 15 percent, you likely will not get a good tip. Because while it is your job to serve me, it is not my job to pay you a decent wage. That is the job of the owner/manager of the restaurant. I do recognize my responsibility to reward good (or even decent) service, and I will do so. But you ain’t getting squat from me if you don’t serve me well.
You’re absolutely right about that. However, the thing I always fear is that the offending server will simply think that I’m a bad tipper, instead of thinking, “Hmmm, could I have improved upon that service?” I mean, there are enough
a) Bad Tippers,
b) Bad Servers, and finally
c) People Who Tip Well Regardless of Service
that it’s possible for the “message” that a bad tip is supposed to convey to get lost.
(And I confess that I fall into Category ©–you pretty much have to pee in my lap, slap me and insult my mama before you’ll get a crappy tip from me (unless for some reason I’m having a Mathematical Brain Fart ™, which has happened but as soon as I figured it out I went back to correct the situation). But usually if I get less-than-stellar service, I’m able to surmise the server’s situation (he’s new/in training, she just got quadruple-seated by a clueless hostess, someone didn’t show up for work and they’re shortstaffed, there’s been a walkout in the kitchen, etc.), and judge accordingly. And usually I get an apology to boot, because a good server knows and admits when he/she is sucking ass. None of this totally excuses bad service (or means that you can’t be annoyed), but I’ve been a server, so I sympathize. But I digress.)
So while ideally a bad tip should clearly convey to your server that the service was poor, it’s possible that MY ass was at the table next to yours and left a decent tip anyway, AND that the server is pretty clueless (especially in light of the fact that some people just tip badly, period), which means that YOU might end up looking like the bad guy for leaving a low (albeit appropriate) tip.
I do understand where you’re coming from, and you’re right–I just wanted to give you another (unfortunate) perspective.
Oh, and I hear you on the grandma thing-- been there, done that with MANY MANY relatives.
I waitressed for four years in college, and because I plan on returning to graduate school in August, I’m moving back in with my parents for six months to save money and will serving at my brother’s restaurant while I substitute teach (his restaurant is upscale, so the money is quite good–my sister-in-law’s sister works there). I actually enjoy waiting tables for the most part, and I certainly prefer it over getting up and working a 9-5 job every day. I’m a good server and I do my best to make sure that my tables get above-average service. But I can’t make my tables tip me properly. I’ve always equated serving to gambling in a way—my wages depend on someone else totally.
I know that it’s very easy to just consider the server someone out doing their job. But I try to look at them as actual people—they may have children to support or are trying to work their way through college, etc. And in the long run, me leaving an extra $3 or $4 won’t hurt my pocket at all, but if I’ve gotten excellent service, it might help them out. There are servers that love their jobs and do give their best. What’s the point in penalizing them for a stupid wage system?
Ava
Look, are you being willfully ignorant here? NOBODY in this thread has said that “You owe me 15 percent of the meal’s cost regardless of the service level”. NOBODY. What has been stated is exactly what I quoted last time, here, I’ll put it in big letters so you don’t miss it again:
Got that? Your response of “But what if I get bad service…” has no bearing on the issue, everyone agrees that small or nonexistant tips are justified for poor service.
Oh, and if you insist on excluding any discounts you got from the amount you figure the tip on, you are a tightwad asshole. If you try and use “physics” to “justify” a razor thin tip margin, you may be a tightwad asshole. You may not be IRL, but the initial impression is not promiseing.
Nobody has said that you should tip 15% regardless of the service QUALITY. Someone has indeed said that you should tip 15% even at a buffet, where the server (maybe) takes your order, brings drinks and clears plates. That’s a difference in service level, but not necessarily quality.
I don’t understand.
I’ve read this whole thread as it was happening and the only objection I’ve heard to the above quote is this: (am paraphrasing and not sure who made this argument:)
Is tipping % based on price or effort? If it is effort, then the tip should be the same whether I order a steak or macaroni&cheese. If it is price based, then why does the discount price % not supposed to be used?
I am a very generous tipper. However, nobody really has addressed the logic. It really does appear to me that servers wish to flip from system to system depending on whether it is more advantagous.
Please explain.
Thanks for the reply, Audrey. My parents have been wondering about this one for awhile. This is local pizza place, and it’s the only one I’ve ever seen with a take-out tip jar at the register.
** hit submit too soon**
And that’s all the more reason for me to believe that at least some servers want customers to base the tip on whatever method gets the server more money.
Weirddave, maybe you can explain since nobody else has-
I have a two-fer coupon and pay $20 for two dinners that would normally cost $40. I should tip based on the $40 pre discount price, because it’s the same amount of work.
I pay $40 for two dinners. I could have paid $20 for two dinners involving the same amount of work, by ordering a less expensive meal. But I should tip twice as much for the $40 meal as the $20 one, even though the work is the same.
I pay $40 for two dinners in a buffet. The server writes down the number in the party (as there is nothing to order other than the buffet),take drink orders, brings drinks and clears plates.I should tip the same as in a restaurant where the server takes my order and brings me my food. although the buffet involves less work for the server.
Apparently, I should tip a minimum of 15% of $40 in all three examples
If the tip should be based on the amount of work, I should tip the same in the second example regardless of the price of the meal, and less in the third example.If the tip should be based on the price of the meal, I should tip 15% of $20 in the first example. No one has yet given a justification for why sometimes it’s the price and sometimes it’s the work.
Hey, Weirddave, if you’re gonna make sweeping generalizations, make sure you know what you’re talking about first, okay? It helps when you have to defend your position later.
Here are a handful of quotes taken from this very thread regarding tipping:
(I didn’t put these in big letters, as you were kind enough to do, but I’m hoping you can see these all the same.)
Sounds to me like quite a lot of people EXPECT a tip in the 15 percent range (at least), regardless of service level.
If you (or anyone else) can answer the questions posed by doreen above, I’d appreciate it. Because, frankly, in these scenarios it sounds like servers want to use the tipping system most advantageous to them. Nothing wrong with that, but if there’s a supposed “rule” regarding tipping amounts, it’ll have to apply to all situations. No fair picking and choosing.
It’s physics, son. A recognized branch of science. No need for the quotation remarks. W=FxD is a widely recognized equation in physics.
Not that it matters now, since your first impression of me is so damning, :rolleyes: but I’m actually a good tipper. Really. You can go back to my earlier statements in this very thread to verify that, if you want. Or come with me on one of my infrequent restaurant visits and verify it for yourself. What I object to is the expectation of a good tip before service is rendered. Tips should be earned, not freely given.
Finally, I’m not an asshole about money. However, I am about spelling and grammar. And you misspelled “promising.”
If you’re so hard on spelling and grammar, we’re in trouble, because I’m disgraphic and can’t spell “kat” if you spot me the “k” and the “t”.
Now, as to the last point: I qualified the last statement: “You may not be IRL, but the initial impression is not promising.”, specifically because you said you tipped well, and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt there.
Your physiscs analogy would hold water if a robot was serving the food to another robot. Unfortunately, human beings are involved, and I can tell you that two people is a lot more work than one. Both patrons are not going want drink refills at the same time. One may want bar drinks ( an extra trip to the bar ) and another soda. I guess I’m just going to have to ask you to trust me on this one. Bringing the entrees is the least part of the job, the more people at a table, the more work.
Finally as to the discount question, the best way I can put it is this. If you get a $40 dinner, your tip should reflect the “$40 dining experience”, reguardless of what you actually pay. Put it another way, it’s great that you’re saving money on your dinner, but you shouldn’t expect the server to take a personal pay cut at the same time. Does that make sense?
Lastly, Re: all of the quotes you threw at me. The base assumption for all of them was as I stated before; you received good service. The only two that might be seen differently:
really aren’t. In both cases, the person in question has already proven they won’t tip, at which points all bets are off. In the U.S., tipping is an expected part of the cost of dining out. If you’re not willing to pay the cost, you don’t get the same experience as those who do. Next time you’re in a retail outlet, try and get them to give you $20 worth of goods for $15 and let me know how successful you are.
There was absolutely no base assumption in any of the quotes I mentioned except that the server should automatically receive a tip, preferably at least 15 percent. That’s why I pulled them out. Show me where service is mentioned in quotes such as: “I took a job that paid $3.50 an hour BECAUSE I, my employer and all of the United States Federal Labor Laws EXPECT people to pay 15%.”
I agree that when I eat out, I should (and do) include in my dining budget a generous tip. However, I will not part with some or all of that tip unless the service is at an acceptable level.
And I’m completely lost on the supposition that a tip should be based on the “dining experience.” If I’m dining with my wife, I might not even notice what I’m eating because I’m gazing rapturously at her loveliness. If that’s the case, should I not tip at all? Or if the book I’m reading is particularly engrossing, such that I don’t notice whether I’m receiving good or bad service, can I tip accordingly?
And what does the server do to make my $40 dining experience different than the $20 dining experience in the same restaurant?Does she serve me better because I ordered steak instead of a burger?And why should the server expect a personal pay raise because I ordered steak rather than a burger? The question is not whether the tip should be based on the pre-discounted price or not- it’s why are the servers who are proclaiming rules are not consistent. The tip being based on the effort can be justified, and the tip based on price can be justified. What can not be justified is a the rule shifting from situation to situation- tip on price when that results in a bigger tip, tip on effort when that results in a bigger tip. Nobody has yet come up with a justification for the inconsistency . The only time the inconsistency was even acknowledged was here
Um, I don’t know where you worked, but I never lost money on a night of stripping. If you weren’t getting table dances or stage tips then what was the point? Anywhere I ever worked, the hot girls made serious cash.
Anyway, Audrey’s my new hero. If you can’t afford to tip properly then you cannot afford to go out. It’s that simple. It would take an exceptionally rude server for me not to tip or tip poorly. Anyone who has waited tables knows what back-breaking work it can be. And if you appreciate fine dining, then you should be prepared to tip 20% on that $100 bottle of wine.
Words fail me.
Why? Tipping is the accepted practice at sit-down restaurants in the US. If you go into a sit-down restaurant with the notion that you’re not going to tip no matter what the service or if you only have the money to cover your meal, you have no business being in that restaurant. Don’t penalize the servers who depend on that money to live. Go to McDonalds. Go to Burger King. Cook at home. Just stay out of my restaurant.
Ava