Don't let your kids pay for the delivery pizza

The BBQ Pit
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sauron *
**I agree completely. And I would turn it around, as well: If you are purposely going to work as a waitperson every day with the attitude that everyone should give you a 15 percent tip no matter how well or how poorly you do your job, you shouldn’t bother working as a waitperson.

Fair enough?

I think most of the waitstaff, and former waitstaff here are saying that they “expect” tips as per the accepted American system for doing their jobs.

I have not seen any of the servers, or xservers here saying that they should get tips no matter what kind of service they provide.

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sigh

We waitpeople and ex-waitpeople have consistantly said that that’s not our attitude. That dog don’t hunt, old boy, time to get a new one.

Now, since Audry isn’t here, let me explain what she was saying, based on my time behind the bar. The point is moot if you’re just having a drink or two. What she’s talking about is people who are there to drink- 4, 5, 6 drinks or more, consumed over the course of an evening. The good customers are going to get liberal pours on their mixed drinks, Top shelf liquors poured instaead of rail ones, the occasional free draft beer, etc…Miserly ones will get the bare minimum- and I don’t think that most of you realize how small the amount of alcohol that is “supposed” to be poured in a mixed drink is. THAT’S what you’re technicly paying for. 1oz of rum with 8 oz of Coke is a rum and coke-but 2-3 oz to 6-7 oz is what most people think of when they think of the tase of a R&C-and you can taste the difference. There isn’t a bartender in the world who won’t happily add some more coke to your drink if it’s too strong…but there are very few who will add more rum.

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Err… less 15% of what? The minimum wage? I believe this has been explained ad nauseum… the minimum wage for tipped staff is LESS THAN HALF the regular minimum wage. I don’t know where you are getting 15% from in relation to the wage.

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I agree. But I have watched other servers give people the wrong food, and when the customer points it out, instead of apologizing, they are so embarrassed/frusterated that they take the food away without saying anything. Is it the server’s fault that the chef screwed up? No. But they didn’t catch it in the kitchen, and they ARE the liason between the chef and the customer. And as such, they should apologize FOR the chef. I never blame the kitchen for MY mistakes, but I DO apologize to customers for the kitchen, letting them know that it was the kitchen that screwed up. Something along the lines of “I’m so sorry. I guess the chef didn’t see the note on the order. ::smile::”

I totally see your point. It’s NOT your obligation or anything. But it’s hard to know when your tip is low because a customer feels the service was below par, or just because the customer is a cheap bastid. I don’t want to curse your name to the gods when the fact is that you’re angry you didn’t get your bread soon enough. For example. A table of four came in today. Friendly, joking with me about how they were on a family vacation. Their food was slow coming from the kitchen because the chef had no line cook today (he’s in jail. No lie.). So I got them their food as soon as it came out, I brought extra salad dressing for one of them. I refilled drinks. I checked on their meal twice, and removed plates at the end. All of this was while my entire section was full. And I repeat, they seemed delighted with their food. If they had seemed unhappy, I would have asked them what I could do for them. But THEY DIDN’T. Bill came to $39. It was a credit card recipt. He left $2. Now obviously, he had the money. I’d sure like to know what the hell I did to deserve that.

If you’re read this thread this far, you MUST read this book!!!
My best friend gave me the BEST book for Christmas. I’ve already read half of it. Waiting by Debra Ginsberg. She’s a 20 year vet in the business, and it’s a great read.

doreen
It seems to me that you’re trying to pay the least amount for an equal level of service. In case B.) Please tell me where you’ve eaten where the entrees have a $10 price difference between them. As I’ve already pointed out, I am going to give proper service to someone ordering JUST an appetizer, but I’m not going to balence a ball on my nose to try and impress them. The people ordering entrees are looking to be served, not just to have a snack. As for case C.)in my experiance, most people DON’T tip 15% at buffets, so it’s a moot point. However, the reason you should is because the server has to take your order anyway, (most places with a buffets also sell food ala cart,) and do everything they’d normally do. The ONLY thing they’re not doing is taking the food from the kitchen to your table. So if you REALLY want to split hairs, why not figure out the exact percentage of importance having the food brought from the kitchen to the table is worth to you (I’d say it’s like 2 or 3%.) Another thing to consider is that the servers should be periodically checking the levels of the food at the buffet. Yea, it’s usually the prep cook’s job, but it’s the server’s job to ensure a good dining experiance, and an empty mashed potato tub is a bummer.

I hate buffets. I like a nice, orderly, controlled diningroom. Soup, Salad, Apps, Entree, Dessert and Coffee. Buffets are my version of narrowly controlled chaos. With bad tips.

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Charged with what? Spitting? Interesting, but I don’t know how you would make a case. I can’t think of anyone that’s going to rat out their manager or supervisor for spitting.

And really - assult? It’s gross, but it’s only spit/snot - it’s not like shards of broken glass, or rat poison are getting put in food.

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In my two posts, I don’t think I’ve ever said that I expect a certain tip. I tip based on service myself. If I do a poor job, then I expect to be tipped accordingly. But don’t take out a slow kitchen on me and don’t take out your bad day on me.

I like waiting tables. I wouldn’t be going back to it full time if I didn’t. One will always get a cheerful server in me:). I don’t think it’s too much to ask that I’m able to earn a living for working hard.

Ava

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As I said before , I don’t care whether the tip should be based on the amount of work, or the price. I have no problem tipping either way. But if I’m supposed to tip based on the work, then the price shouldn’t matter. And if I’m supposed to tip on the price, then the amount of work shouldn’t matter. I want to see one single server give me a reason why I should *always use the method that provides the larger tip *, other than because the servers want me to. Because face it, you’d be saying I was unreasonable if I said servers should expect the tip to be calculated by the whichever method provides the lower tip, because that’s what the customers want (and you’d be right)

As for places with a $10 difference, I can think offhand of Red Lobster ( $9.99 for fried shrimp, $19.99 for some lobster, crab and shrimp meal, as I mentioned before), and Peter Luger’s (around $18 for a steak sandwich or about $30 for a steak single) And you can easily double the total price at an inexpensive restaurant by ordering $5 drinks instead of $1.50 Cokes.

I’m not sure what kind of places buffet places your talking about.I’m not talking about places where you can order a meal and a buffet, or where the buffet is included with the meal, like Ponderosa or Sizzler. I’m talking about places that only have a buffet and don’t sell food a la carte (lots of them around here). So the server at most brings drinks,clears plates and collects the bill. In some, you pay before you’re seated, so it’s only bringing drinks and clearing plates. And I’m sure those servers can handle twice as many tables as they could if they were doing full service (taking orders and bringing the food at the right time).

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If you want to save money, and go ahead and find a way to “morally” tip the LOWEST POSSIBLE AMOUNT, go ahead. You’re more than welcome. I, as the server who gave you perfectly good service, is also more than welcome to think you are a cheap fucking bastard who is only interested in the lowest bottom line for yourself, while I’ve been running around fetching your ketchup and extra butter and what-have-you. That’s where I stand. I think we should agree to disagree, because I’m so tired of re-hashing this. Go ahead. Be cheap. If that makes me a greedy bitch for wanting to be tipped, then I’m perfectly OK with that.

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What Swiddles said. Why tip at all? You’re not going to find any salves for your conscience here. It’s a free country, go ahead and be a cheap bastard. In the end result, you’re only one table. The decent folks more than make up for the cheap ones in the long run.

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Glory,

I think you misread my post. I’m on your side here. I said that it’s harder to wait on a four top than a two top. There was no sarcasm there…

And Audrey, you are my new hero. You and WeirdDave have explained everything I’ve been trying to explain, much more eloquently and succinctly.

Sauron,
You keep arguing something that no one is saying. No server or X server on this thread has said that they expect a 15% tip regardless of service. Every last one has said (multiple times) that it is perfectly okay to tip less than 15% or not at all, if the service is bad. Are you purposely ignoring these statements? Because all you are doing is repeating ad naseum an argument to refute a statement that has never been made.

Can you provide a quote of someone saying that they expect at least 15% regardless of service given?

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Sauron, let me explain something to you. The guidelines imposed by the TABC are so strict that if they were strictly enforced, there would be no bars in Texas. Seriously.

A.) If you order a third drink/beer/glass of wine within the space of one hour, according to TABC, I am not allowed to serve you one b/c you would be legally drunk after two.

B.) I am not allowed to serve anyone who is remotely intoxicated, in any way. So if you’ve had a double gin and tonic, I am not legally allowed to serve you for an hour…which is the estimated time it takes for the body to metabolize one drink.

C.) I am not allowed to serve alcoholics. This means basically any regular that I’ve ever had…anyone who drinks on a regular basis, even one drink a week, is legally considered an alcoholic by TABC.

D.) I am not allowed to serve anyone a beer and a shot at the same time. If you order a Bud Light and a shot of tequila, I cannot legally give you both. One or the other.

E.) The legal limit for alcohol per drink in the state of Texas is an ounce and a half. Regardless of the mixer, regardless of the size of the glass. This makes a Long Island Iced Tea totally illegal.

F.) I am not allowed to serve anyone who does not have a legal, valid, Texas state ID on them. If your grandmother came to the bar, I am not legally allowed to serve her if she didn’t bring her ID. Yes, even though it’s obvious to everyone that she’s 72 years old.

G.) I am not allowed to get anyone drunk. Ever. Period. End of story. And their definition of “drunk” is two drinks.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

I have never heard of anyone lodging a complaint against a bar for “overpouring” drinks. That is the goofiest thing I ever heard. The point of these laws is basically so that, if a bar is discovered serving minors or some such BIG NO-NO, TABC can bust them on all these other “minor infractions” to the point that they can shut the bar down. TABC knows very well that if a bar were to follow all of their guidelines to the letter, no one would go there. Most bars get investigated by the TABC for serving minors; that’s why, at least here in San Antonio, they mainly go after nightclubs that have “18 and up” admissions…and bars that have a reputation for “easy carding.”

And the fine in Texas for serving a minor is $4,000. Out of my pocket.

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Thank you, by the way, Weirddave, for making my point for me in my absence. :smiley: I was at work.

And I think you’ve made your point quite well, Lezlers. But I’m happy to back you up at any time. :):slight_smile:

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Well, since I didn’t say I wanted to always tip the lowest possible amount ( in fact, I said that would be unreasonable of me), or that you were a “greedy bitch” for wanting to be tipped (although you have no problem calling people “cheap” for tipping less than you want to get), and you STILL have not come up with a reason why sometimes the tip should be based on price and sometimes on work (you’re “tired of rehashing this”, but you still haven’t answered the original question)- I guess you’re conceding that there IS no reason except that you want the biggest possible tip.(which someone might get from me, but not because I feel obligated to follow your inconsistent set of rules)

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Doreen…sigh

Here’s the answer to your question.

If 15% of your total ticket is the average, expected tip, it is reasonable to expect that you would tip that amount, barring awful service. Yes?

If you get a coupon/comp/special deal that in some way reduces the amount of your ticket…so that your $100 meal becomes an $80 meal…that was a choice on the part of the management to bring in your business. They have already done you a “favor” by giving you something for nothing. Why do you want to turn around and screw the server out of his original tip? The server didn’t offer you the special…the management did. Just how little did you want to spend that night? How cheap did you wanna get? Why does the server get his pay docked because the management hooked you up?

The point here, Doreen, is that if people are given the opportunity to be assholes, they will be. If you want to use a “buy one entree/get one free” coupon at your local diner, and you want to tip the waiter 15% of only ONE entree, rather than the two he actually served, you are “logically” correct. Feel free to tip only on that one entree. Your math will be sound.

The waiter is also free to think that you are a cheap bitch who wasn’t content with getting a free entree…you’re a cheap bitch who wants to get out of tipping, too. This is why waiters hate coupons so much; they bring in this type of person in droves. This is also why so many of these coupons, after computing the discount, also add an automatic gratuity on the ORIGINAL amount. Because they know that people will be assholes, and in the opinion of the management, the server deserves a tip on the original ticket. Not the specially priced ticket.

So there’s your answer. Don’t ever feel obligated to follow anyone’s rules, though. Especially when they might actually gasp cost you a little extra. Be that rebel who leaves their waiter a 7% tip because the manager discounted your ticket. Cheat the system. Fight that battle. Win that war!

:rolleyes:

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I swear to God, people, I’m tired of saying this. I see those quotes that I pulled from the thread. So I know they’ve been posted at least twice. Listen carefully: Some folks in this thread have (or had) the attitude that they were due a tip regardless of the level of service they provided. Don’t believe me? Read those quotes I pulled again. Nowhere in them does it say “I deserve a tip if I provide good service.” That is a fair statement, and one I heartily agree with. What the quotes said was, essentially, “I deserve a tip.” No qualifiers on the statement. That’s the attitude to which I object.

doreen, in my opinion, is asking a reasonable question. She is not looking for a way to be a cheapskate or “beat the Man;” she’s not trying to use logic to stiff a server. She’s asking for consistency in the way tips are handled for different situations. The fact that no one can give her a straight answer tells me that the servers and ex-servers represented here don’t have a straight answer aside from “whatever gives the server the largest tip.” That is patently ridiculous.

I will reiterate my earlier assertions once again: I tip. I tip well. Veiled insults or references to “cheap bastards” do not apply to me when it comes to tipping (unless, as noted earlier, I receive significantly subpar service). All I want is a definitive method for calculating a tip.

Audrey Levins, thanks for the information on the TABC.

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This thread is great. I love the repetition that we’ve got going here. I especially love the way that the folks that have been arguing and quibbling over how much work is involved, percentage of tip that should be left when the entree is expensive…etc also state that they’re always generous tippers.

I personally think everyone should have to work for tips at some point in their lives. It changes your perspective a lot. I’ve worked as a waiter, bartender and parking valet during my highschool and college years and I think that it really gave me an appreciation for the job and what you appreciate as a server.

I also moved from the UK to the US 8 or so years ago, so I held tipped jobs in both (people do tip in the UK, especially at the holidays).

I would say that the general level of service at restaurants in the US may be a little higher than in the UK - not much, but you certainly get asked if everything is OK a lot more. At bars it’s a wash, different atmospheres completely for the most part.

I too had the tables nightmares. The worst thing though - the smell of the restaurant. You can never get it fully out of your work clothes after a while.

I didn’t know that you were supposed to tip your hairdresser for two years though. Really. And I always went to the same place.

Why do THEY expect a handout for doing what they’re supposed to ! :slight_smile:

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Posted by Narrad:

But there is still a difference. On our ballots it clearly says the person’s name. I voted for George W. Bush, not the Republican Party, or some local representative whom everyone knew was going to try to elect Bush as president.

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For the same reason he gets a raise when I spend $100 instead of $80, while requiring no extra work- because 15% of the bill is a reasonable tip.(not a rule I came up with, and not one I necessarily disagree with-I’m only looking for consistency) But at least you’re admitting it’s not logical. You are only addressing one side-why should you get less because I have a coupon.Please explain why a server should get more just because I ordered lobster instead of shrimp? You can’t ,except by reference to the 15% rule, can you? There are ways to figure a tip other than by the amount of the bill- a flat rate per person, say. And I’ve seen servers advocate that, too, in some situations (although not here), such as at a coffee shop where a 15% tip on a $3 would be be $0.45. But that would be no good, because a per person rate would mean you wouldn’t get more for the $100 dinner than the $80 one, right?

Fine, as long the restaurant clearly states the gratuity will be added automatically, but which, by the way, forces me to tip that amount even if the service is terrible.

If management both thought you deserved the tip AND cared to make sure you got paid what you deserve, the prices would be high enough for you to be paid what you deserve without leaving it up to the customers’ whim. Remember, this is the same management that doesn’t want to be required to pay you the minimum wage.Management only cares that you get enough tips to bring you up to minimum wage (so that they don’t have to make it up) and to keep someone working there who won’t drive away the customers.

And by the way, if I ever used a two-fer coupn (which I never have), the only way I would tip 15% of the price I paid would be if my greedy server mentioned that although she normally expected a tip of 15% of the bill, in this case she expected a tip of 30% of the bill. But I’m guessing you don’t do that, and I think I know why. There’s a difference between thinking you’re being unreasonable in your expectations and being cheap.

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Doreen, let’s see if I can explain the possibilities that have been pretty well stated in this thread.

More expensive dishes often mean more work. You’ll have to find the post yourself - it’s one of Audrey’s, she made it several pages ago and I’m not offering that level of service for no tip at all ;). But the point is that serving lobster or sizzling steak often means a lot more work for the employees (think about the mess lobster entails - oo, word choice!). This is an imperfect approximation but it works in many cases.

The more I think about it, it even works for wines. Expensive wines usually require expensive expertise in recommending them. At a restaurant where the difference in cost in bottles is wide, either the waitstaff will be expected to be knowledgeable or, more likely, the restaurant will have a sommelier/wine steward. That expertise costs money. And that’s what your (inflated) tip will pay for.

It’s an illogical system, but it’s how people are taxed. This Audrey and co. have explained ad nauseam (and I’m not referring to the rare-but-heinous adulteration incidents). Servers’ taxes are based on 15% payouts, whether they actually get it or not. That’s why the default should be 15% unless the service is bad.

This seems to be where Sauron has a problem, and I think it’s more the result of phrasing than anything else: the thought of “defaults” seems to leave a bad taste in his mouth because (I suspect) it veers close to “entitlement.” That’s a distinction I understand. But in the end, Sauron and Audrey are really advocating the same practice, I believe - they both seem to say that acceptable service is much more the rule than the exception.

This brings us to our final, catch-all rule:

Waitstaff are poorly paid. And that’s why you default to the higher option regardless. I file this under a wonderful phrase from Calvin Trillin (actually Trillin’s dad): you might as well be a mensch. The point is, it doesn’t cost that much to tip well - the difference is often a couple of bucks, so why not? Especially when the likelihood is that the server ain’t exactly getting rich. And if you’re in one of the few restaurants where the servers actually do get rich, you’re pretty well bound to be richer still, and the service is pretty well bound to be impeccable and worth every penny.

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Sauron,

It was implied. Quit being such a literalist. You quoted me in that post and I’ve mentioned many times before and after I posted it that it applied to servers giving adequate service. So did many others. You’re grasping at straws now, and it’s getting really annoying.