Don't say "That's awful white of you," please.

Gee, I almost thought I’d stumbled into the resurrection of the “white trash” discussion!

I am not about to get embroiled in the whole issue regarding how different people use (or perceive) the phrase, today. Language does change and, as LouisB noted, a phrase that might have had racist origins could very easily have been picked up as a rote expression and used without any of the earlier connotations by later generations. (A point that I explicitly argued in the “white trash” thread.)

However, in the interest of the Straight Dope®, I will point out that the origin is explicitly racist. Regardless of white knights or white shields (but not white feathers, obviously), the phrase was clearly understood when it was coined.
If we repair to the earliest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (compiled within ten years of the Edith Wharton citation, so one hopes the editors knew whereof they cited), one finds that under White as an adjective, definition 4, the meaning “Applied to those races of men (chiefly European or of European extraction) characterized by light complexion, as distinguished from black or negro, red, yellow, etc.”
Then under definition 4 b, the definition “slang or colloq., (by extension from WHITE MAN 3; orig. U.S. ) Honourable; square dealing.” Followed by citations to Edith Wharton’s The Custom of the Country, “Well–that is white of you.” and “I meant to act white by you.”
The WHITE MAN reference points to entry 3 b “orig. U.S. slang: A man of honourable character such as one associates with a European (as distinguished from a negro)”

So, while we may argue incessantly as to the current meaning and usage, let us put aside any unsupported conjectures regarding the origin of the phrase. It began as a racist claim that whites were more honorable, honest, trustworthy, fair, decent, etc. than other groups, particularly blacks.

Yea but eleanor doesn’t mean it that way, and apparently we are just a bunch of PC poopieheads for being put off.

The line forms over there jerks thumb :stuck_out_tongue:

This isn’t the time to mention that “Mighty White” is the name of a type of sliced bread in England, is it? (Or was. I can’t remember seeing it lately. It was one of those extra wheatgerm thingies.) :smiley:

And of course, this means that when I describe someone as “mighty white”, all I’m saying is that he’s well-bred.

Groan.
First, I don’t regard anyone here as a PC poopiehead–but I do think that that’s the level of dicussion going on here. I love our language and it’s complexities–I wish I knew more about entymology (sp?) and linguistics. you with the face said that '“White” in the noble sense is not a common feature of the modern American vernacular." and perhaps that is true. What might be most precise is that I am not a common feature of the modern American vernacular. Let me explain what I mean.

If I were to have to quantify the degrees of racial epithet to sardonic commentary for this phrase, I would have put it at about 2% racial and 98% caustic deriding. Add to the fact that I now know some black folks (my friend’s parents) who have apparently used it and that we joke around at work with it(I am one of two white nurses, the rest are black or Asian)–I am amazed and appalled at the interp being made here.

I would think that instead of posters claiming loud and long that it could ONLY have racially charged meaning, that they in turn would consider that the phrase might have more than one intent. But no, that has not happened. It must be and only is racially reactionary. I disagree.

Add to this also that I am a demon for reading British lit of almost any era (I draw the line at Chaucer-who wants to work that hard?), and that my sister has a degree in medieval studies, my parents are European history buffs, and my sons are obsessed with castles, battles and knights etc–clearly I am NOT a “typical” American (whatever the hell that may be). Did you know that England used to be Albion–from Alba. Gues what alba means–it means white. Gah! the whole island is racist! :wink:

None of this is important to the generalities of life. One should not have to explain one’s background in order to be understood! I am not suggesting that by any means. But to say that I was being wide-eyed and “pretending” not to know about the dirty underbelly of this phrase is just plain wrong. I assumed that Dopers would read my post (complete with clarification) and understand the intent of my remarks to poor Martin.

I was aware of of the nastier interpretation. I thought (how silly of me) that since it has more than one meaning(with the racial one being secondary), my intended meaning would stand. For some, it did not–in fact, that meaning is dismissed outright. That I find disingenous and offensive. If you want to claim Doper status, you had better be prepared to have your ironclad assumptions about Life and Important Things challenged. Some things are more than you suppose–some things much less so. C’est la vie.

I see here a sort of group hysteria surrounding the use of an idiom. asterion has some excellent points. I appreciate that post. I won’t go all grand and highfallutin’ and cry, “Save our noble tongue!”, but I am irked that something as simple as this–which, for the last time, no-one is using as a compliment, should put so many up in arms.

Zoe -I thank you for the nice things in your post. I see your point. I tend to believe that bit about messages perceived and messages sent etc as well. But this feels different to me. A misperception would have been cleared up long before now. Not only that, but there should have been no misperception in the first place, as my usage was clearly delineated. God knows I am enough of a pragmatist to usually shrug stuff like this off and say, ok, folks-got it and move on.

But I won’t. There is something else going on here-I am not sure what, but this is more than a discussion about a turn of phrase. Somehow, this either frightens people or threatens them in some way–or there are alot of Dopers who need busier lives! :slight_smile: In a strange way, I feel like we are talking about something else under the guise of complaining and defending the use of idioms. Or maybe that’s my cold medicine doing my thinking for me.

I suppose I will open the gates of Hell here if I liken the use of the phrase to the use of the word “niggah” or “nigger” by the black community in reference to itself. Being white, I don’t know a whole lot about that, but I do know that it is quite controversial and can be inflammatory. Oprah did a show on it–I believe she took Chris Rock to task about his using it. Apparently, some younger blacks are using it (to what purpose I know not, except in Rock’s case, to be funny) and this has appalled some older folks.

God, I just see this being misconstrued into me wanting the word “nigger” to make a comeback. Nothing could be further than the truth. Just as I do not desire (and would not use) the phrase, “mighty white of you” IF the white supremicists and prejudiced morons reclaimed it for their own. I dont’ see that happening.
If anything, from where I sit, I see the phrase taking on new, better life–one that deprecates the receipient in such a way as to expose hypocrsiy and pomposity, one that mocks the very core of racism that it apparently sprang from.

Frankly, I can’t see how ANYONE could look at it and think that the deliverer is touting white superiority in any way. To me, that says that 1. you don’t understand satire, 2. you don’t understand language and 3. that you feel threatened by confrontation that doesn’t involve name calling and swear words.

This does not imbue respect in me. Perhaps if I had just called Martin a dickhead, we would all be happy now. Well, I wouldn’t be–dickhead is a stupid, sophomoric name to call anyone. Not only that, I was criticising his actions–not his person. There’s plenty of the latter(too much) online and here.

My mistake (if it can be called that) was to expect a level of sophistication and insight on the part of other Dopers. Apparently I missed that mark.

askeptic --if what you have posted is true, why did you ask me “what the fuck does that mean?” in the other thread? Why did you not then say, “hey! I’ve got a racist uncle who says that! Don’t use it.” I think that you did NOT fully read my post where I not only used the phrase, but also stipulated what I meant by it. In short, I think you started a shit storm for no good purpose.
In conclusion (how pompous of me, sorry)–I shall continue to use this phrase for several reasons. Not only for the ones I laid out above, but also for the very reason that it has caused such a brouhaha. Essentially, I will not cowtow to the PC police (here and elsewhere). I am appalled at the eviscerating of English in recent times–the psycho-feel good babble and euphemisms that make inclusion and sentiment paramount to precision and incisiveness.

Me not saying “that’s mighty white of you” doesn’t make racism go away, doesn’t rid the world of malicious remarks on unacceptable groups (the mentally ill, in case you’re confused), won’t show up the perpetuators of same for what they are. Of couse, my using the phrase isn’t likely to save the world, either, but that’s not the point.

This has been a very interesting window into different views. Again, I apolgize for any inadvertent offense I may have caused. Forgive me for being a PIA, but a careful reading of my posts would have shown everyone that such an offense was never intended.

Again, I said it undermined the very racism of its origins when used in response to racism. Now review these posts:

What Guinistasia and her tapeworm are asserting here is that it’s okay to use anytime. It’s been established as fact that the phrase is racist in origin and has been used that way right along, even to the present day. It is no longer my job to prove that. I have seen no evidence of any force acting upon the phrase to change its meaning, except repeated assertions of, “that’s not what I meant.” But as I said in my OP, it’s not enough to not mean anything racist by it. It has been pointed out in this thread and in other threads that the expression is offensive. If the phrase is offensive, and you are aware that it is, you can no longer claim you don’t mean it to be offensive.

askeptic --I meant to put in saoirse in there as the one starting the shit storm. Such a long post and I overlooked that. I apologize. It’s supposed to read: "In short, I think your questioning was valid, to a point, but it has led to saoirse starting a shit storm for no good purpose. "
Must preview and edit more concisely. Sorry.

Saoirse -I am afraid that you will have to be offended. I don’t willingly cause offense to anyone–but it seems to be unavoidable in this case. I have to say that I am somewhat puzzled at the point of view that holds that because a thing was X, it must always be X-no matter context, intent, or direction. It must be quite limiting.

askeptic --I meant to put in saoirse in there as the one starting the shit storm. Such a long post and I overlooked that. I apologize. It’s supposed to read: "In short, I think your questioning was valid, to a point, but it has led to saoirse starting a shit storm for no good purpose. "
Must preview and edit more concisely. Sorry.

Saoirse -I am afraid that you will have to be offended. I don’t willingly cause offense to anyone–but it seems to be unavoidable in this case. I have to say that I am somewhat puzzled at the point of view that holds that because a thing was X, it must always be X-no matter context, intent, or direction. It must be quite limiting.

Data Point - I’m non-white, a victim of fairly recent racial oppression, and I do not find the term offensive if used sarcastically - I use it that way myself. I also don’t equate it to such phrases as “jew you”, “gyppoed” or “welshed”, because it 's the inverse of those intentionally negative phrases. I feel it gains more power from its racist origins, and that’s why I use it as I do (I learned the expression from “Wild,Wild West”, by the way).

I for one have never heard it used the way Guinistasia is insisting it is always used. One of us has our head up something.

I have only ever heard it used by old white guys who think they’re not racist because they like basketball.

It’s an Archie Bunker catchphrase for chrissakes. The only times I remember seeing it used nowadays is in fictional dialog to show that the character who says it is old and ignorant.

Fair enough. FWIW, I rarely use it the phrase, and when I do, it’s obviously the sarcastic, “You’re a racist/bigotted/sexist/homophobic/whatever dickweed.”

I don’t think the phrase has evolved as much as you have convinced yourself that it has. I grew up in various places in the South. And I’m not that old. The *common * use of “that’s mighty white of you” is either:

  1. thanks, friend – you’ve treated me fairly (or done a good thing), like a proper white folk would. Not like those, uh, you know…

  2. sarcastically – man you just ripped me off (or done me wrong). In this case “that’s mighty white of you” means exactly the opposite. You didn’t act like a white person would. Instead, you acted no better than one of those shifty, cheating (fill in the blank).

Either way, the racial overtones are obvious.

I’m not at all familiar with the ironic use totally divorced of race you and some other posters keep trying to convince people is the norm for this phrase.

Is that to say that the phrase is sometimes used in a non-racial way? No. Obviously it is. But to continue to ignore its origin, it’s still-current use in many quarters, seems like sticking your fingers in your ears in favor of willful ignorance.

There have been several posters that have used citations to educate others on the origin of this phrase. And yet we *still * have people asking about white hats or white wedding dresses!

This reminds me of a line my stand-up comedian friend sometimes uses:

"Now, I have nothing against (white, black, purple, orange, etc.) people. In fact, some of my best friends…

[pause for effect]

…have nothing against (white, black, …etc.) people."
ok… i won’t say “you had to be there” because i HATE that expression… but it IS funnier when it is being performed on stage in some appropriately humorous context…

It is your right to choose the language which you will use. I chose to believe you when you said that you did not mean that remark in any racially disparaging way. It does not seem respectful for you to describe my feelings as “disingenuous.” (Saoirse and I react to this phrase in the same way.)

It’s almost as if you are saying that we shouldn’t feel this way. Our feelings just are.

When you use that phrase, at least be honest with yourself and know that some people are offended.

eleanor,
You have been dodging this issue throughout this thread. You have tried to make it about me, and whether I am an “ignorant piece of shit” (I am). You have asserted that this is actually a pitting of you in disguise, when I made it as clear as I could within the confines of the rules of this board that I am not a sniveling bloodfuck out to hurt you. I’m really all about the language here. You have not taken this seriously, as far as I can see. You have, unbelievably, asserted that some of your best friends are black, a silly enough response in real life. On a message board, where this assertion can neither be proven, nor disproven (unless Lynn breaks in here to reveal that your friends are actually Belgians), it is absurd.

My argument is that X remains X until some other force acts upon it. I was asked to demonstrate that this expression was conceived in sin. It has been demonstrated. I have asked, several times, for someone to demonstrate that the expression has been redeemed, and all I’ve gotten is “I mean no offense to black people,” and the assurance that you’re not the sort of person who would do that. But that assertion actually strikes at the heart of this board. It was my understanding that I should judge a post by the actual words contained within. Not by the associations I have with the username. Not by the number of posts the user has. Not by the location the user has listed. No one has a corner on the truth, and even a stopped clock is right twice a day (an ignorant piece of shit is right, on average, 2.8 times a day). I am not willing to base my acceptance of this usage upon my opinion of the poster using it. I would say that’s the hallmark of a clique, and it is not something I would participate in.

I am not willing to continue arguing point by point with three different individuals, each posting something new every 90 seconds. I will only ask you to take this complaint seriously, and consider whether this is an expression that deserves the life you’ve given it.

saoirse --I have no idea what you are talking about. I ahve explained myself many, many times. Nowhere have I ever referred to you or those who do not share my opinion of this phrase as “ignorant pieces of shit”.

You INTERPRETING it that way reinforces my notion that you read more into posts than is perhaps wise.

Nowhere did I ever say that “some of my best friends are black”. WTF? Stop changing my words and their meanings. I work with 95% African-Americans, I have some friends who are black. So what? I did indeed ask one friend (whom my son was visiting–I would never have called her up and said, “here is this phrase-what’s the ‘black’ take on it?”-and I mentioned it to her in passing).

I am have no idea where or what you are on about re cliques etc. If you feel this strongly about this issue, notify a mod. I will stop using this phrase (which is only appropriate in certain circumstances and is not used commonly) if and when they ban if from the board. Where did I ask you to accept the use of the phrase based upone my personality or character? I explained my background a bit, and I am not going to explain it again. You apparently only read to satisfy prior prejudices, because I went on to say that

frankly, I am not sure why I should be so concerned with your hurt feelings here. Seriously, there is stuff on this bb that offends me often. But I have learned alot and I have also learned to examine my own offense-some things still offend me and others I have questioned and resolved.

I do not ask you to do so here. No-one can ask that of anyone else. It’s up to you.
I suspect that no amount of my posting here will change your mind from 1. I am racist, 2. that I hanker for those “good ole days” of Jim Crow and 3. this phrase should not be spoken, ever. I am none of the first two, and I believe this phrase has a place–a small one,yes, but a place in the pantheon of insults. You are determined to see only one view here-so be it. There’s an irony here that I dont’ dare point out.

Zoe -I am sorry. I am in a hurry this morning, but I do understand your remark re disigenousness. I was irked that I was called such–it had nothing to do with you!

Argh. I come home from a chess tournament and find that I wrote some stuff wrong. That’ll teach me to post as I’m trying to get out the door.

Zoe -I meant to say that I DON’T understand your comment re disingenousness–I thought that devious quality was being applied to me and I took offense. I didn’t mean to accuse you of it. :confused: You have every right to your feelings–I just don’t enter into them. If anything, I feel quite strongly the other way!
saoirse --we will have to agree to disagree fundatmentally on this one. I suspect you want something along the lines of a full apology from me for using the phrase, as well as a promise to not ever use it again. I can’t do that. I can’t cater to one poster’s desire’s like that. Would you? Even if it’s a few posters–still, no. There have been as many here stating the case that the phrase is not racist. I fall squarely in that camp. I appreciate your trying to keep this issue to the issue. It didn’t always feel like to me, but that is most likely my mis-interpretation. You feel strongly about this; I can understand that. I feel as strongly in opposition.

I don’t quite understand your remarks re poster’s location etc. Could you explain? (I will understand if you are bone tired of this and decline).

Didja play white or black? I sense that somehow this is significant.

The simple *fact *is, eleanor, that the phrase is inherently racist in its origins. Just because you feel you’ve found a way to say it without personally feeling racist feelings is utterly, utterly irrelevant.

To quote Flannery O’Connor, “You have the advantage of using a word with a private meaning and a public odor.”

My point being–hit submit too soon–that we don’t get to choose, as individuals, what a word or a phrase means, if that word or phrase is already in wide use with an established definition.

Just because you don’t think equating “fair” with “white” is not the same thing as equating “non-fair” with “non-white” does not alter the fact that such is the case.

You may not be a racist, but you do, in fact, support and perpetuate racists ideas by using the phrase. Whether that’s your intent is irrelevant; that is the effect.