YOU see it that way. Others have explained why you are wrong.
It has nothing to do with the word “white” somehow meaning something, but the entire phrase.
It’s not our problem that you refuse to accept our explanations. It’s not offensive just because you want it to be offensive.
That’s actually one of my best colors. Thank you for noticing-that’s-dare I say it?
Well, now I’m just confused. Do you think using it ironically is offensive or not? If not, what exactly are you arguing with Guinastasia about?
Now it’s my turn to beg off for a while. I have some place to be, and I have to get going. I’ll try to answer what I can when I get back.
Actually, I used the phrase to DENIGRATE Martin because he “dissed” the mentally ill in his rant about liberals et al.
That remark of his, saorise was NOT white of him BECAUSE it was not noble, gracious, compassionate or fair. It was a lowdown dirty trick to smear those who have done nothing to him and cannot help their condition and I called him on it. How the fuck that is racist of me is beyond me. IMO, I’m starting to think that YOU are prejudiced–against smart, liberal Dopers who get subtleties. I refuse to apologize for your being a concrete operationalist.
Now, I offered (tongue in cheek) to change the color in question to fuschia-someone else has chimed in with seafoam. Why oh why do I have the strong feeling that IF I substitute fuschia for white in that oh so pithy and damning phrase that you will just “know” that it is replacing “white” and continue to find offense?
Christ knows I try to allow for others’ feelings here and in RL, but this is PC nonsense taken too far. saorise and the Dorkness apparently police their language more strictly than the Hayes Office of old. So be it. That is their choice and they are welcome to their opinions.
The rest of us recognize intent and context–and if we don’t–we ask about it. You are so determined to dress me down on this. I have apologized to you, singly, for any offense to YOU I might have caused. I state again–I will not be shamed into avoiding idiomatic language appropriately. You refuse, REFUSE to see other non-racial interps for the word “white” . You, sir, are guilty of racial essentialism.
If you’d have claimed that "white"wasn’t racial, I wouldn’t have said anything - the whole thing is not a big deal to me, and I wasn’t sure of the etymology myself. My issue was that you deemed those who object to the racist phrase overly PC mainly because your small-town friends from sixty years ago used it all the time.
Well, it wasn’t quite sixty years ago—more like fifty to fifty-five. As I’ve said, I never used the phrase, nor do I use it now. I think the entire issue is just about beaten to death. I would just as soon drop the entire thing.
Yes, me too! And I say that as a white person who used the expression “free, white, and twenty one” for YEARS before someone politely informed me of its racist background. So I went and looked it up, and sure enough, it’s fairly loaded. At that point, I was amazed that no one had mentioned it to me before.
I don’t have much of a dog in this fight, because I’m pretty neutral on “mighty white” used in an ironic way.
But I do feel compelled to give saoirse a little support on the origin of the phrase. From the cite he (she? sorry) has shared (several times), which matches with most of the other info I have found in a quickie online search, the phrase is based on the idea of white as a race, not white as in white hat. Whether or not people intend it to be about white as a race or white as a hat, that’s the origin. If you feel comfortable that the meaning has evolved enough that the common understanding is now of the hat variety, then go to town with it. It’s just silly, on the other hand, to act like that was NEVER the meaning.
I can’t speak for the other Dopers, but I acknowledged the racial undertone from the first. And made it clear that that wasn’t my intent.
You see the result before you.
“That’s mighty white of you” is quite lame to me, if only because it isn’t always 100% clear what it is being conveyed when somebody says it. It takes a certain finesse to pull it off smoothly and I find that most people don’t have that particular finesse. It’s even worse in a text-based medium.
I don’t see how anyone can seriously claim they are using “white” in any other way but race. How many people go around saying white when they mean noble? Outside of Tolkien, I’ve never heard anyone apply white in that way.
I am a sixty-something year old white woman who grew up in the segregated South and who spent my most productive years teaching English and communication in integrated Southern schools. I’m hoping that I can add a little perspective.
I believe you. From my own experience in the early 1960’s, I know that a person can be aware of the racial undertone of that phrase and still use it and not be a racially bigoted person and remain oblivious to how offensive the phrase is to some people.
I have come to enjoy your posts – your attitude, your insights, your analogies, and your sense of humor at the Dope, Ms. Rigsby. I often think of us as kindred spirits – only I’m creakier. I don’t for one moment think that you intended your comment to be racist. But one thing that I used to teach in my communication classes was that the Message Sent is not always the Message Received.
“Mighty white of you” means one thing to some of you and it means an entirely different thing to another group of people. Both groups are right.
I’ve known you and Guinastasia long enough to know that you are savvy people and not some sick racists. To the contrary. But saoirse and I don’t just “choose” to be offended by this expression. I used to use it myself without thinking. Then one of my African-American friends called me on it in the mid-1960’s and I thought about the implications of it and a few other things I was saying and I quit using it. After a while, I started to bristle when I heard it used. Then I didn’t hear or see it used for twenty years – until your post.
Is it being “reclaimed”? Why? I don’t see why it needs to be reclaimed. Why do we want to reclaim a phrase which implies that white is more noble? I don’t want to do that even in sarcasm. But that’s my individual choice.
We really are truly and naturally offended by the use of that phrase, eleanorigsby. Whether or not you use it is totally your choice and I respect that and I like you no matter what choice you make.
Sure, you can still find it but not as much in popular culture. Older works, mostly. I would probably peg the stoppage of that usage to about the middle of the 20th century unless you’re talking fantasy. For example, here’s the descriptions of the colors in Magic: The Gathering.
Does this mean I can no longer play white and black decks because they’re racially charged? I can set up a wonderfully ridiculous argument (which I bet some people would actually take seriously) about how awful it is that black is related to decay and necromancy. Reminds me of the protests against The Lord of the Rings because of the whole white=good and black=evil thing.
Actually, I think the first time I ran across the phrase was when I was reading Beyond This Horizon by Heinlein. Book written in 1942, the youth is from 1926. Talking about reintroducing football to the 23rd (I think) century:
One of the banes of language is the false etymologies stupid people keep coming up with, and aren’t all racial (The other bane of language, of course, is sacrificing clarity and perfectly fine usage on the Altar of Inclusiveness.) I think anyone with a knowledge of both language and literature would understand this. In most cases, we’re either talking about idioms that are quite old or a somewhat archaic word usage. Or can I start slamming C.S. Lewis as being homophobic for repeated usage of “queer” and “gay” in their non-slang sense while simultaneously praising his racial sensitivity for a sentence like:
It’s an idiom. I generally don’t go around saying how noble or chivalrous someone is either, but I might use white in that sense as either part of an idiomatic construction or in an older usage. That’s one of the advantages of having a good vocabulary and being literate. There are more ways to precisely express myself and get the right shade of meaning. Or can I not use “a black look”, “a coon’s age”, “black-hearted”, “black sheep”, “dark horse”, “pot calling the kettle black”, and so on either? Heck, D&D’s got the Paladin and the Blackguard, so should I inform Wizards of the Coast that I’m going to boycott their games (which would be a shame, since NWN2 is coming out soon, though I don’t play Magic these days) until they remove all possible racial connotations, real or mistaken?
Well, that’s their own damn fault.
Well, like I said, Zoe, when I use it, it’s usually ironic. I don’t use it sincerely.
The problem with that Guinn is that I come from alabama, my grandfather was in the Klan, I knew exactly what he meant when he said it. Its kind of like if somebody from space landed and started saying nigger this and nigger that, and when confronted said well thats not how I meant it.
I also want to chip in with some support forsaoirse’s interpretation of this phrase. I’ve heard it used many, many times, always as an insult. It is used sarcastically, in the sense of: ‘your (cheap, ignorant, duplicitous, lazy) behavior is not the (generous, wise, honest, hardworking) behavior that you think it is’. Or ‘you think you are setting a good example, but you are not.’ However, I have always understood it to have originated from a racist belief that whites are inherently honest, generous, wise, etc., or at least that they should act that way as an example to the ‘less advanced races.’
The phrase may have started out as a genuine complement, used unironically between whites who were feeling self-congratulatory. It could also clearly be used sarcastically by a racist, in the sense of ‘you act more like a (insert epithet here) than a white man.’ The sarcastic usage has become predominant, in the sense of ‘you think that you are being noble, but really you are an asshole.’ Many, perhaps most, people who use the phrase today may be ignorant of its origins and underlying racist connotations, but that does not mean that they do not exist.
For example, I grew up using “gyp” in the sense of being cheated or defrauded. I did not know until my late teens that the phrase originated as a disparagment of the morals of Gypsy peoples. Ever since learning this, I have tried to avoid using the phrase, even though most people who use it are unaware of the underlying slur. Perhaps it can be said that the phrase is now so commonly used in a benign way that its use can be condoned, but I still feel uncomfortable using it and will occasionally point out its history to a person that uses it.
So, it may be that most people that use ‘mighty white’ are not aware of its origins; perhaps they do their own internal folk etymology on it and assume that ‘white’=‘full-spectrum light; pure; noble’ and feel fully justified in using it. But once you have been told of its origins, and that (at least originally) ‘white’=‘member of the white race’, why would you persist in using the phrase? The odds that I would inadvertantly say “what a gyp” to an actual Romany person and offend them is very low, but I still avoid using the phrase, and I don’t think that that makes me hypersensitive or PC.
Doesn’t strike me as much worse than “The Man.”
“Stick it to The Man.” What does that mean? I’m a white guy, is everyone supposed to be sticking it to me? Ouch.
Thanks brossa, great post!
I get what you’re saying, but to me, it doesn’t sound any difference than insulting someone by implying they’re a Nazi and saying, “Sieg Heil!” to them. It’s turning it around on them.
Guinastasia, I believe you when you say how you use it. No problem.
But what if in a couple of years a part of the country (Henry County, Tennessee) decides to start reclaiming the use of “slut-whore” so that it is no longer an insult. For them it could become a little joke or term of endearment among friends – the way that the very best of friends can mutter the word “bitch” under the breath in a teasing way now. Wouldn’t it take a very long time before someone who is just an MB acquaintance from Henry County could call you a “slut-whore” without your being somewhat offended – especially if that usage hasn’t taken hold at all in your part of the country?
That’s my point. “White” in the noble sense is not a common feature of the modern American vernacular. Perhaps it was back in the day, but “white” today is not usually the word people reach for when describing nobility or grace. So for someone to declare indignantly that they are using white in that sense and “how dare you interpret otherwise” strikes as more than a wee but absurd. And disingenous. It’s like declaring a dislike for faggots in a crowded room and then getting bent out of shape when people think you are talking about gays instead of cigarettes.
It’s been shown that “that’s mighty white of you” indeed has racist origins, so it’s not like folks are imagining things that simply aren’t there. Those who are fond of saying it may be clueless of its history, but that doesn’t change the fact that the phrase is what it is. Words and phrases do not just mean what the individual wants them to mean. You can’t just appropriate a phrase to mean something else and expect everyone else to follow.
If you say “that’s mighty white of you” and then bat your eyes innocently when someone takes offense, saying that you meant “white” in a completely different way than how its usually meant is just going to make you look like someone who doesn’t know how to communicate effectively.
What good is a good vocabulary if you are using words in ways that are easily misinterpreted? Just because you can? Well, that’s all well and good, I guess, if effective communication isn’t a high priority.
The difference between those terms and the phrase that we are talking about is that the latter was popularized as a racist saying. “Dark horse” and “pot calling…” have nothing to do with race at all. More apt comparisons would be “gyped” or “jewed down”.