Drinking and Driving: Is Enforcement Hypocritical?

I’ve never been charged with DUI. I don’t drink much these days, and I never go to bars anymore. But I used to, and today I was mulling this over a bit. In the USA (where I live – and I’d love to hear other perspectives), we allow people to drive to a bar; we allow them to consume alcoholic beverages; we then allow them, at least in theory, to drive home. Now, unless the bar situations I’ve been in and observed differ greatly from the norm, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that a good percentage of people driving away from a bar have consumed at least one (and in many cases, several) drinks – and that these drinks are still in their system. Oh, hell, let’s say it: a good number of people who drive home from a bar are legally drunk OR…don’t know if they are (and I think thats an interesting concept in and of itself).

So. We’ve got people who either are or may be legally intoxicated leaving bars. In many bars. In every town, in every state. Every night. And in many cases, these are people who do this – every night.

From casually observing the police report, it appears that about four people (in my town 75k people) get arrested for DUI each night. Some, by the odds, are “constant” offenders (meaning they do this every night). Some are people who do this on occasion. Some are the people that truly did just do it this once. Either way, the penalties are harsh – probably at least $1000 in fines, community service, possibly being forced to enter some kind of “alcohol education program”. Plus public embarassment (you’re now branded a Drunk Driver), a police record, and so on – nasty future consequences.

I don’t mean to say that we shouldn’t harshly punish drunk driving. The numbers are out there, and while I don’t know the exact figures, I know that many thousands die each year due to alcohol-related auto accidents. Etc. Bad thing to do, dangerous, etc.

Except that countless people do it. If you’re still following my late-night (albeit sober) reasoning, this is what I’m getting at. Remember the officer who came to school and told you how bad drinking and driving was? Your friends, neighbors, other people you admire? Many of them have done, or continue to do this. What’s the difference between them and a Drunk Driver? They got lucky. They didn’t get caught.

So we tell people (and ourselves) that this behavior is evil, we look down on those (or distance ourselves from, or fire them, or…) who have been caught, and then we go out and do the same thing – or we know those who do.

Anyway, before I ramble on (since I think we all get my point), my question is this: is this fair? Is it hypocritical of our society to tacitly allow this behavior, but pretend its uncommon by randomly picking a handful of people to stand in as the scapegoats, and ignoring the behavior of everyone else? If it is fair, I suppose there’s no debate or question; if not, though, is there a better way to handle this behavior? I am interested in anyones’ thoughts on, for example, the realities of the situation – obviously, the reason only a couple of the people who are breaking the law pay the penalty is because there are only so many people out there to enforce the law – if everyone who engaged in this behavior could be punished, would we punish so severely? Or are we trying to hit the few who get caught hard enough that everyone else will change? Is that, itself, fair – should the few pay for the sins of the many, so to speak?

For the record, I know this is a touchy subject – I’m sure there are people here whose lives have been negatively affected by drunk driving. I’m not looking to debate the practice itself (and I’m hoping that we can avoid emotional responses that might lead to hijacks).

On a purely theoretical level: is the way we handle the enforcement of drunk-driving laws “fair”, firstly, and secondly, is it rational (in the sense of altering the behavior)?

Curious to see what people think. Appreciate your indulging my long-winded post.

Enforcement of drunk driving laws is like enforcement of any other law; a lot more people get away with it than people who get caught. And except in the case of sting operations or the like, they are enforced as randomly. By random I mean: cop witnesses it and takes action.

Laws are being broken all the time; the old truism about getting mad/upset (about any kind of infraction, even if it’s just a traffic ticket) is to think of all the other things you did and all the times you got away with it. And this applies to rolling a stop sign all the way to dealing drugs on school grounds; it happens all the time, and a lot of people get away with it a lot of the time.

My point is that enforcement of any law is never going to be “fair,” if “fair” means that the majority of offenders get busted. And I don’t think most laws are on the books to alter behavior; they are punishment for bad behavior.

Nor do I think of anybody who gets busted for anything–again, something minor or major–is “unlucky.” Because no matter how many times you flip a coin and get tails, your odds of throwing heads are still 50/50. People who get busted drunk-driving aren’t “scapegoats” so much as they are people who flipped the coin and got heads instead of tails.

That is the difference, more like no picture no happen.

Well that depends, usually in polite society we mumble the party line about it being evil, but more than likely in private, cominserate with the individual in question about being nailed for DUI. Demonize it , not likely. I understand that a number of people , including on this board have lost loved ones and I am not about to get into a debate with them, its a no win situation.

Of course its fair , those people you mentioned got picked by random chance and they know the laws, its been preached so much now its practically religion. You go out to bars and night clubs and what not, you know the likely locations and times for Ride programs.

The whole thing is really about viral marketing. You cannot bust a significant part of the economy by doing a one hundred percent enforcement, that gets politicians thrown out of office and more pliant legislation enacted that would be more lax towards the offenders.

You nail ten or twenty people to the wall, demonize them in public and label them , then you can effect how society actually works. Is it working, dont know, but the ride program still nails people, heck people are still getting busted for not wearing seat belts.

The bottom line is that society does not concider drinking and driving a crime, its just against the law.

Declan

It’s not “fair” any more than how we pretend that nobody drinks until they are age 21, nobody uses illegal drugs, that people come to a full and complete stop at every stop sign, or that people used to drive 55mph on the freeways.

It speaks to the larger issue in society that people are willing to have harsh laws passed to feel like they are doing something about the problem. As you said, you know that thousands are driving drunk every night, yet here comes some poor mother who just lost her kids to a drunk driver and she wants a new law passed. Do you tell her to get lost? I would, but most people take the sympathy that they feel and hand her what she wants.

None of these things are ever handled rationally. We went from treating DUI with a wink and a nod to draconian penalties that follow you for life.

i’m not a fan of preventative safety laws, especially those pertaining to driving. seat belts, speed limits, and DUI specifically. imo people haven’t committed a crime until they did something wrong. i don’t like the idea that someone engaging in risky behavior is as punishable as someone who ran afoul of that risk.

this isn’t to say that i’m against all preventative measures like auto safety requirements. so, don’t skew my “libertarian” views to mean that car makers can run amok making whatever cars they want, and if it’s not safe enough, market forces will eventually drive them out.

what i’m saying really is that given the traffic statistics, it’s risky but not outrageously risky for me to do 80 on the freeway, BAC at .1, and wearing no seatbelt. i personally understand those odds and have decided to take that risk. the controversy comes when statistically, i replicate my behavior enough that i hit someone else and infringe upon their right to live. naturally i say “well punish me if/when that happens”. others counter with “that’s too late. try telling that to a grieving mother. you shouldn’t be driving riskily to begin with.” to which i’ll retort “well then how safe does it have to be? the speed limit’s arbitrary anyway. and my seatbelt? my seatbelt had nothing to do with your kid getting smashed. and booze? BAC is an inaccurate measure of drunkeness.”

in the end, i just want to be able to hop in my car and drive. pull me over when i change lanes without signalling (imo a bigger traffic infraction than speeding). pull me over if i run a red, or drive on the wrong side of the road. heck, pull me over for a busted taillight. just leave me alone when it comes to how fast i go, if there’s nylon over my shoulder, and if i’ve tilted some until i’ve committed a legit moving violation.

I forgot to mention the BAC thing, but that does play in; all states were basically forced to lower their legal definitions of “intoxication” (or what have you) from .10 to .08. I recall the unpleasant game of trying to determine whether the two or three beers over X hours might put me at Y BAC; it never came down to any question of intoxication, but purely a numbers game. This quite likely had a big part to do with my quitting “the bar scene” – even with very minor drinking, you never knew with certainty whether you were cutting it too close. In Germany, I was at at least one bar that had Breathalyzers placed by the restrooms – pay your DM, get a little paper straw, and you knew (assuming accuracy of the machine) what you were going to blow if pulled over. I’ve never seen this in the US (and don’t know how common it is elsewhere) – and I’ve always assumed it was way too much liability for a bar to assume, etc. That said, I suppose a reasonable facsimile (something I first saw on the market only a couple years ago) is personal breathalyzers…obviously, at some point, you’re playing your machine against the police machine (and if you’re blowing .079, I doubt you’re going to take that chance), but…I guess the fact that its also a straight-up numeric evaluation is also part of the whole question. What, someone who blows .07 is AOK, someone at .08 (at? above? never clarified.). I realize that, as with all laws, you need to clearly define terms, so a number is going to be the only alternative to arbitrary determinations at roadside (and also, that some states do have “shaded” levels – although these never shade you upwards, only punish you at lower levels)…hmm. Just some thoughts. Would this actually be more reasonable if we simply , er, raised the limit? (Good luck passing that bill, heh). I’d be interested to see what the numbers are for fatalities as compared to BAC.

Enforcement isn’t hypocritical. In the US you ostensibly have the freedom to drive drunk so long as you don’t give a cop probable cause to pull you over. There are exceptions of course like sobriety checkpoints but by and large, a person has to be exhibiting signs of drunkenness before the law can intervene.

That seems fair to me. Sober or not, if I’m driving like an asshole, a cop should pull me over.

I agree with a lot of what pancakes3 said, I don’t like nanny state safety laws. I wear my seat belt because I don’t want to smash my face into the steering wheel, not because of the $10 ticket.

Wow. It’s very different in the UK, or at least among my social group and I suspect most of the country. We don’t disapprove of people who are caught drink driving, we disapprove of drink driving.

If I see someone getting into a car to drive after drinking I think they’re stupid. Not because they may get caught but because they may injure someone.

Some people think it’s okay to have one but a lot think it’s not worth the risk to have any.

In Australia the police regularly set up by the side of the road near major nightclub and drinking areas and breathtest every single person driving. I don’t know many people that drink drive, we use designated drivers, take taxis or public transport, the risk of getting caught is too high and it’s been that way since the mid nineties.

I tend to agree, but I think that this statement takes it a bit too far. Should I be allowed to target practice in the middle of a busy main street, and the police can do nothing until I actually injure someone?

Every town I’ve been in that tries this eventually pulls over some VIP that uses his/her political musscle to stop the practice. This being the only fair way to enforce drunk driving laws, the laws then become quite unfair if the purpose is to stop people from drinking and driving. It isn’t. It is only to stop some of them, show examples and raise revenue.
Besides you have to practice driving drunk if you want to get good at it so you won’t be pulled over.

I think this is the best solution. People don’t know how drunk they are when they get behind the wheel and even doing the calculation of a drink per hour can give wrong answers based on what you’re drinking and your size. I luckily live about a mile from the bar in my town so I just walk home most nights but knowing would make that decision easier. If people knew they were over the limit I think less would drive rather then just feeling ok then driving.

The other thing I think would help would be using physical tests to determine drunkenness. I’ve helped out with training new police officers by being the drunk subject for their roadside sobriety tests and at a .08 I feel fine and have better motor control then most people who are stonecold sober if we tested for ability to drive rather then alcohol content I think we could do a better job of eliminating the dangerous drivers.

I don’t like that I have to incur some of the additional risk because some jackass can’t take a taxi home.

I don’t follow your logic. “We tried nothing and that didn’t work so we passed laws to try and solve the problem”? The “problem” was that people were getting themselves hammered, driving home in their cars and then causing fatal accidents. So groups like MADD were formed initially with the purpose of pushing for stronger laws and enforcement of those laws. In other words, they pushed to “do something” about the problem. Look, I hate mothers and sympathetic people as much as the next asshole, but you have a hard time convincing even me that we shouldn’t make it illegal for someone to drink themselves retarded and then careen down the street in a thousand pounds of steel.

Yes, people drink and drive. I myself have driven on numerous occassions when technically I should not have (and on a few occassions where it was probably ridiculously dangerous for me to do so). Does that make it “right”? No. It makes me stupid (albiet lucky…and skilled).

Throwing around terms like “evil” is a bit childish and silly. It’s not about good or evil. It is all about risk and deterence. The goal is not 100% blanket enforcement, it’s to reduce risk of accidents and deaths caused by drunk driving.

We as a society recognize that driving drunk greatly increases the risk of causing a collision and that risk rises in proportion to how drunk you are. My making it illegal and giving people who violate the law harsh penalties, it gives some people pause before they get wasted and drive their car home. Maybe a person will drive home after a few beers, but will refrain from those extra shots knowing that they have to drive and that will make the difference between “oh shit I almost hit that guy” and “where am I? what happened to my legs?”. Maybe they will decide to take a taxi or get a designated driver. Instead of a hundred cars on the road with drivers who really shouldn’t be driving, you have twenty.

I happen to drive near the stadiums in Pittsburgh quite a bit. I also drive a road about a mile from there where there is often a sobriety checkpoint when those types of stings (or whatever you want to call them) are being used. I’ve gotten stopped at said checkpoint a few times and that doesn’t really bother me since I won’t drive if I’ve had so much as a beer. (I’m on various BP and other meds and it isn’t a good idea)

Once, since it was early and traffic wasn’t backed up much, I decided to ask the cop why they don’t try the same thing after a Steelers game when the ratio of drunk drivers to sober drivers seems to be a fair bit heavier. His reply was “We don’t want to catch too many and besides ------- they drop a lot of bucks in our economy”. I was polite in how I asked and he seemed honest in his response so take it for what its worth.

I’m glad that so far the stupid evil people are generally restricted to the United States.

I went to a New Year’s Eve party in Denmark once and was just blown away to see that everyone had made arrangements beforehand so that they would not drive after they had been drinking. They had either made arrangements for taxis, designated drivers, or they walked to where they were staying.

The driving while intoxicated laws are very strict there. You can go away to jail or prison for a long time and lose not just your license, but your car. They didn’t whine about it either.

I don’t drive if I’ve been drinking. Never. And I have been known to try to disable a car to keep someone off the road. (It didn’t work.) Someone in my family went to jail and lost a driver’s license for six months. It was appropriate.

Yes, I have known people killed by drunk drivers.

Outlaw alcohol and cars, and bars.

Problem solved. Plus if this had been done in a timely fashion back in the 80s, Blondie never would have released that stupid song.

Boy, you see the silver lining in every cloud, don’t you?:stuck_out_tongue:

First, I don’t see where I said the word “evil” anywhere.

Next, I am not advocating making DUI legal. I am saying that the enforcement is arbitrary and heavy-handed. Will heavy enforcement cut down on drunk driving? Of course. Pass a law making it a mandatory lethal injection for first offense driving with any amount of alcohol in your system and you would see a huge decrease in drunk driving. But in a free country, don’t we strive to make laws reasonable, proportional, and fair?

When it is more or less a lottery system as to who gets a DUI on a particular Saturday, it isn’t fair.

The OP said it. My comments are not always directed at one specific person.

Well, just to inject a dose of reality, there are more bars and people drinking and roads for them to drive on than there are cops to police them all. So the cops enforce what they can when they can.

It’s not unfair because it is only a “lottery” for those who play (IOW get drunk and drive). It’s like saying Russian Routlette is unfair for the people who lose at it. No one told you to point a gun at your head.

They aren’t, but it does seem like we have more than our fair share. There are a lot of people in this country who think they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, regardless of how stupid it is, and any attempt to tell them otherwise is a restriction of their “Freedom”.

I think your premise is flawed. I think that many–most?–people who drink at bars do not drive home drunk: they have one over the course of an hour, or two over a couple hours, or they aren’t driving. Certainly that’s the norm among my social circle.