I think you just like to argue Hamlet. I feel like I’m witnessing “suicide by cop” here.
I’m not sure I follow you here. By advocating that people be responsible with their consumer choices and not spend money purchasing items that cause more harm and support a system that causes very bad things, I’m committing suicide by cop? By expressing an opinion that SUV’s are wasteful and drug users are, in part, to blame for the evils of the drug trade I’m arguing for the sake of arguing? Just to ease your mind, I do indeed believe that, by and large, SUV’s cons outweigh the pros for a vast majority of their users, and that they should be required to have lower emissions, get better gas mileage, and be built safer for the occupants and everyone else on the road. I also believe that people who spend money for the apparently uncontrollable desire to become intoxicated should be fully conscious of the harms that spending is causing. If you have a problem with these things, stop with the drive-by insults and post something intelligent about them. You really don’t have to follow Azael’s M.O.
cowgirl Yes I am absolutely stating that if you are going to oppose pollution in the name of breathing clean air you should speak out against all sources and not merely the ones that aren’t a convenience to you. Pull into a truck stop or highway rest area and look at all the trucks sitting there idling away diesel fuel. I wish I had the cite for it, but I do recall reading that if you are going to be stopped for either 30 or 60 seconds or more, it is more fuel efficient to shut off the engine rather than leave it idling. My SUV gets me about 8 miles to work, where it is shut off, and then about 8 miles home from work - where it is shut off… There is more fuel idled away by those “needed” trucks in any given day in any reasonably sized truck stop than my SUV goes through in a week and possibly longer. So yes… I say again… If you want to point fingers, point them at real pollutants, and not at whatever the popular target of the hour may happen to be.
Let me try to put this in words small enough to fit in the gap between your ears and your inflated sense of self. To correct a bad thing, you look for the cause. If you blame the wrong cause, the bad thing will cont…too big a word, lemme see…keep going on. If you want the bad thing to stop, fix the real problem, not the symptoms.
Out of interest, with your keen interest in picking scapegoats and claiming moral superiority, have you ever considered a career in politics or talk radio?
That’s me. Mentor to children everywhere. And frankly I’m skeptical of the sincerity of any question posted in the Pit. Especially when there are such ridiculously obvious answers. Or perhaps cynical would be a better word than skeptical.
Yes. But let us take this to its ultimate conclusion and see what it means. It means only that, per capita, North Americans produce more goods than citizens/subjects of other nations.
That “not” wasn’t supposed to be there. The next sentence was a little more clear.
Then you misunderstand. I want to support the drug trade. I do not want to support murder. As you might be able to realize, then, the only thing for me to complain about is the one thing that causes murder to be such a large part of the drug trade: the law making it illegal. Fin.
So are my fucking tax dollars. :rolleyes:
I am not a part of killing people. I am a part of people using their brains to create and distribute an enjoyable product that also happens to be illegal. I am not sure why you cannot separate the two in your mind.
Yes, because you are blaming murders on people that do not commit murders.
Then you have done yourself a disservice by branding the very solution to this problem as a mere “rationalization”.
What other “very bad things” do you think I want to happen? What retarded equivocation are you making if not murder? Say it so I don’t paint you with the wrong brush.
Sejal_Traurig: If this was a thread about idling your semi outside a truck stop, you can be sure I would come out against that too. If you don’t believe me, start one and see.
And just because SUVs are a ‘popular target’ does not mean they are not also ‘real pollutants’.
The argument that ‘someone else pollutes more than me, therefore my polluting is okay’ will not cut it.
For the love of Og, do you really have that big of a problem understanding the difference between WHAT I ACTUALLY SAY, and WHAT YOU REALLY, REALLY, REALLY WANT ME TO SAY. Your condesention, while cute, is horribly misplaced.
Since I guess I really do have to explain it again, but I am quickly losing my belief that you will ever get it.
You have Very Bad Things happening. There are multiple causes for these Very Bad Things happening. The illegality of the drugs. The evil of many of the people who are partaking in the drug trade. AND, the people who continue to put money in the pockets of people involved in the drug trade.
I know you have your Legalization security blanket argument. You’ve got in a stranglehold, refusing to look at any discussion of drugs without considering your security blanket. However, just for one second please loosen your grip and try as hard as you can, to consider what I am saying and not what you want me to say. Until drugs are legalized, if ever, purchasing illegal drugs supports Very Bad Things. Now, take a deep breath and think about it a second. I am not saying users are the only people to blame. I am not saying that legalization isn’t a good idea. I am saying that people should take responsibility for putting money in a system that perpetuates violence and harm to people they may never meet.
The “solution” to these Very Bad Things is for another thread, one that has been done to death on these boards. What I am, have been, and will continue to say is that while these Very Bad Things are happening, putting your monetary support into it is irresponsible.
cowgirl So… The argument that someone else pollutes more than me so mine is ok doesn’t wash? You need to visit Chicago some day and look at all the little “economy cars” that people drive down the Kennedy every day to and from the Loop… The 2 hour drive in each direction sucking up fuel when there is a perfectly good commuter train to use (Which, when I lived in the Chicago suburbs and worked in the Loop, I did ride)… How does that fit into your theory that SUVs are evil? I burn in two weeks what one of those people burns in a week or less. How does that make me the bad guy?
Your argument is that my SUV burns a lot of fuel, and it does, compared to riding a bike or a smaller car, but it was those smaller cars that were getting towed out of the ditch this morning when I was on my way to work. Those cars sitting there idling to keep their driver warm while he waited for the tow trucks to arrive… Your complaint is that I consume too much fuel… I don’t… Not when things are put into perspective… You complain that I put too many pollutants into the air with my SUV… Have you even bothered to find out what suv I drive? I don’t believe I have specified… So how do you KNOW how much fuel it burns? You don’t… Which means that your complaints about how much fuel I burn don’t seem to wash too well either…
It’s a fact. It’s true because it’s a fact. A fact’s a fact - so it’s true.
Causality? We don’t need no stinkin’ causality.
The TV tells me smoking pot can get women pregnant. I wonder if fertility clinics no about this discovery yet
I am not complaining that you consume too much fuel, because that would imply that there is an amount that you could consume that I would feel is not ‘too much.’
Rather, I am asking you, and all consumers of fuel (which is everyone, I am not singling you out, it’s only that you’re the one asking me) to please be responsible with their use of it. If those drivers of smaller cars were here defending their fuel use I would expect the same amount of responsibility from them as I do from you. Of course I don’t think people should idle until their cars warm up, but the fact that they do does not change the fact that you pollute as well (and the fact that I am not addressing them in this forum does not excuse them, either.)
And nowhere did I imply (and if I did, I’m sorry) that you are somehow evil and awful and unworthy of life because you drive an SUV, or that SUVs are evil. What I am trying to say is that all use of fossil fuel pollutes the air, and if you’re going to use it you had damn well better acknowledge your role in the pollution of the air.
So go bring down big oil then. I think there are plenty of people making a fine case against you, so I’ll decline my invitation to join the choir.
I’d consider this more than merely an implication that SUV drivers are the bad guys… You don’t mention any other users of fossil fuels, unless it was an accidental association because one of the “people who design” the neighborhoods also happens to drive a compact or economy car. You did not say “people who choose to operate vehicles powered by fossil fuels”… Not at all… you said “people who choose to buy SUVs”… That is, by anyone’s definition, singling out a demographic which is part of a much much larger group.
Oops… Forgive the Hamlet in the above post. I neglected to edit to the beginning of the post I quoted…
If you are in a situation, and it appears every single drug user and dealer is in, where you know where your money goes, none if it is sent up the distribution chain, and no one is involves in violent protection of their profits, more power to you. I’ve already given out two gold stars for those wonderfully responsible drug consumers. However, I think you are kidding yourself if you think your money isn’t the main reason the illegal drug trade exists, and that very bad things happen.
**
It’s not just big oil, its the carmakers and politicians who are owned by those two, as well as the people who create the demand for these vehicles. If you like, I’ll rant about everybody inthe chain too, but the fact that there are others more responsible for pollution does not absolve people from the decisions they make.
If a large portion of the pot smokers in this country quit right now, the government would claim a War on Drugs victory and conclude that the latest bizarre round of ONDCP commercials has worked.
That alone should be reason to buy as much pot as you can.
Yes, I know that the drug trade exists because of the money spent on drugs. You get today’s blue ribbon prize for best grasp of the obvious. Money is the reason everything is sold, and yes, bad things happen. The auto industry exists because people spend money on automobiles, and bad things happen. I hear car-jackings are on the rise. The music industry exists because people buy CD’s, and bad things happen. The Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac Shakur were probably assasinated. What passes for an argument from the latest incarnation of the anti-drug lobby is woefully pathetic.
I pretty much quit pot after college, so I’m not really “in a situation” as you had put it, and I am not even railing against the drug war; I just get annoyed when my intelligence is insulted. Both you and the anti-drug lobby have given up discussion of causality for vague insinuations of “bad things” and ridiculous “appeal to authority” logical fallacies such as “It’s a fact”. Why is it a fact? Because I’m kidding myself if I feel otherwise? Are you saying it’s a fact because it’s a fact?
Beeblebrox, I found your example comparing the auto industry and the illicit drug trade to be intriguing. I can tell you if auto dealers were killing undercover officers, or Ford had firebombed a house because Saturn had tried to compete for my money, I’d be bitching about people who spend money on those cars. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to buy an R.Kelly CD and put any money in his child-molesting pocket.
It’s the same reason there was a call for divestment from South Africa and a boycott of companies using child labor, people don’t want their money being used to support apartied or the exploitation of children. Hence all the example in the OP about responsible consumerism. It just takes a bit more concern for the consequences of your spending habits.
I have no idea what kind of proof would be acceptable to you to show that money spent on illicit drugs is being used by drug dealers and suppliers to commit violent acts to protect their profit. Sure it’s not “Here’s ten dollars, make sure that undercover officer in Mexico is killed to get me my pot,” but all the death, violence, and pain caused by the illegal drug trade is part of the system that gets you your bag of pot. Although automobile dealers are slimy, they aren’t out there committing drive-bys to secure their Volvo francise.
Okay, you’re right. I apologize. Let me rephrase, if I may:
Many people’s lifestyles produce a level of pollution which is disproportionate to their needs. This is facilitated by things like urban design, automobile manufacturing and marketing, and so on. I believe everyone, including people who idle their Honda Civics (as well as self-righteous cyclists), should have a good hard think about what they really ‘need’ (as opposed to ‘want’ - or even ‘really really want’), and for each consumer choice to look at the benefits they enjoy in comparison to the costs that others are required to bear. This is a standard I hold everyone to, not just when it comes to gasoline, but for everything.
Personally, I believe that very few people actually ‘need’ an SUV, since their transportation needs can usually be met by a smaller, safer (for others), less polluting automobile (or none at all). One reason for believing this is because there has always been a need to deal with snow, and transporting families and furniture and sporting equipment, and the human race managed even without SUVs.
How’s that? 
But that’s my whole point. How do you know the murder of a Mexican police officer has anything to do with the production of marijuana sold in the US? The example has to be documented with more than a vague claim by you. What are the statistics of marijuana related murders in Mexico? Was it really over the marijuana or was the officer killed because he demanded a greater bribe to look the other way about the gun-running the other guy was also doing? Numbers. Causality. Logic. We don’t deal in vague assertions and hypotheticals around here.
You state that you don’t know what kind of proof I need. I am telling you that you need to provide some evidence beyond the vague “Very Bad Things”. There are arguments against the use of marijuana - though they are different from the ones against cocaine, or heroin, or cyrstal meth, or whatever. There are facts to support these arguments. You haven’t used any of those arguments, however, and keep aping the damn “it’s a fact” falacy. Surely you know that “because I say so” isn’t an argument.
Alright, here’s some homework for you. From your OP
1.) Using Department of Justice, DEA, or local police department statistics, how many murders were commited where the trafficking of marijuana was the chief factor involved in the motive? 2.) Relay one documented instance where an undercover officer was murdered in direct relation to the trafficking in LSD.
Hell, you may be right, but who the Hell are you? Do I know you? Why should I take your word for it just because you say so? The answer is that I shouldn’t. You have to prove causality. Vague comparisons to Ben and Jerry’s or South African diamond mines are only going to get groans from me unless you can show that the comparison is a valid one. Numbers. Causality. Logic. My point is not about drugs, Hamlet, it is about logic.