Also, how far back in the chain do you go? Should I boycott the business that advertises on a radio station that plays songs of a known drug user ?
And remember this. I don’t live in the City, I cannot take public trasportation. I work for a small County Government.
My choices effect you because I am one of the little guys that keeps this whole country running. I drive to work each day in an SUV, because it can get me there.
Frankly, why should I care if some undercover cop gets shot as a result of my buying drugs? He was trying to keep me from getting them. I want that job to be as dangerous as possible.
That entire post wasn’t directed at you, just the first part. Sorry if it seemed i was going after you.
Erek
Hey, if you need your SUV then more power to you. If you don’t then you shouldn’t be so defensive when people ridicule you for buying a gas wasting status symbol. I certainly don’t know what people’s needs for their SUVs are or are not. And I certainly do not advocate their regulation. Well I think they should be held to higher emissions standards than they are.
Erek
While I won’t go so far as to say that I want the undercover cop to be shot, I do equate his position with that of the drug lords he’s going after. Just because he BELIEVES in what he’s doing being right, doesn’t make it so. He’s part of the problem, not part of the solution. I feel bad for the 3 year old girl who is a victim of a drive by. I feel bad for the mother who is now single because her husband who was supporting his family by selling pot was carted off to jail.
As for the drug dealers and the cops they are both soldiers in a parody of a war, if they lose their lives that’s their choice for fighting something so ridiculous.
In otherwords the cops are choosing to get into that position, a position that in my opinion they shouldn’t be in, in the first place, so as Mr2001 said, it doesn’t make me feel that they are a victim, they are one of the perpetrators.
Erek
Did I or did I not, in the very section of text that you quoted, make mention of the fact that my vehicle consumes more fuel than average? I’d consider that an acknowledgement of a negative that my SUV (Truck… Whatever… Its a Bronco… Its built on a modified F Series truck frame… The title calls it a station wagon…) has… There are others… Its big… A lot of the parking spaces at the grocery store are being made ever so slightly smaller. This makes it a lot tougher to get in and out of the truck when people park RIGHT on the yellow line. I’ll save that discussion for another rant, however. Its very maneuverable, though. My previous car was a Pontiac Grand Prix. That thing had a horribly wide turning radius… The Bronco could do a figure 8 inside the Prix single 360… But I digress… We are talking about disadvantages… Frankly, aside from the sheer size and cost of the vehicle, as well as dismal gas mileage, I can’t think of many. Its comfortable. Its a good runner. The 4 wheel drive system makes blizzard conditions, like today, almost seem insignificant in terms of driving it down the road. I would imagine that the “10 to 15” cars in the ditch, per the radio this morning, would liked to have said the same thing. There was even one roll over accident (NOT an SUV) that blocked all westbound traffic on the interstate not half a mile from my place of business. So, I guess it comes down to the negatives are:
A: It costs me more to get in the first place than an economy car
B: It costs more to operate than said car
C: It doesn’t fit into parking spaces quite as nicely as I’d like.
Satisfied? An SUV owner has acknowledged some negatives of owning an SUV. And knowing those disadvantages, I’d buy another, and probably will. Why? I like to be able to carry everything with me inside the truck that I need when I go camping, for example. I like to be able to get to work without calling a towtruck when there are whiteout conditions, as there were here this morning. I like to be able to see over the car in front of me to the stopped car in front of him that he didn’t see because he is too busy dialing his cell phone, reading the paper, juggling an egg McMuffin, and shaving. All things considered, my truck was a pretty good purchase…
Sure, I don’t want them to be shot. I wish it never happened, but it’s at least as appropriate to blame the cop for putting himself in that situation as to blame drug users for fueling the black market.
A cop who’s asked to infiltrate a gang of thugs can always resign and get another job if it comes to that… he won’t have to give up his livelihood, hobbies, or lifestyle to avoid a dangerous situation. However, a recreational drug user has only two choices, buy drugs from a dealer or quit, and an addict has no choice at all.
Well my point of view on SUV drivers was never directed at you personally.
Though I find it amusing that your idea of negatives are all personal inconveniences.
Erek
**
O.K. Thanks. But many of the anti-SUV folks think I should just move. Change my lifestyle.
**
Why should I be defensive when people call something I need a gas wasting status symbol? Oh, and you put ridicule in there as well. LOL. Didn’t know I was being laughed at too.
People without knowledge or experience in the need of such a vechicle would like to to tell me what kind of vehicle to drive?
Wouldn’t you be a bit defensive?
**
Thanks, you just summed up why the anti-SUV group is in no position to debate this
.
I am gonna have to take issue with this. The point that I am making, and I’m not directing shots at anyone in particular, least of all you. Is not that no one has a need for an SUV, and not that every SUV is a status symbol, but that there is something inherently selfish and undermining about people who KNOW we fight wars over oil who KNOW that burning gas makes the air less breathable, that KNOW that the air is cleaned out by rain which then enters our water supply, who live in an area where it’s flat, and temperate and have all modern conveniences a paved road away, never take it out of the city, and live alone, yet still drive an Expedition. Basically the way I see it is, that this person, which clearly isn’t you, is doing something akin to farting in a crowded elevator. I don’t think they should be legally penalized, but I certainly think they are an asshole. And really that’s what it comes down to. This type of behavior is socially unacceptable. And in my opinion, it’s assholes like the guy I just described that give such a bad name to people who legitimately need an SUV.
Erek
You should get fitted for a tin-foil hat. So what would you do differently?
mswas: wow ! thanks for taking over when I went home from work and could no longer respond. you said it better than I could have !
I don’t have anything more to add, really, except:
I’m sorry that SUV drivers feel like they are put on the defensive by ‘anti-SUV types’. But you know what? Tough shit. I am often put on the defensive as well, with regards to my choice of transportation (in this very thread even) as well as my consumer habits (same thread) and eating habits (vegetarian - many other threads). This is not only limited to the SDMB! If I make you feel defensive, why is it necessarily my problem and not yours? If you can’t defend your choices, then, really, should you be making them - or publishing them on a thread like this ?
And finally, Tars Tarkas, please stop saying ‘Why don’t you go criticize someone else for their fuel use?’ I will point out, again, that this is not a thread about lawnmowers but a thread about SUVs. Because we are critical of SUVs in no way implies that we are not critical of other users of fuel. That’s just silly. If you see me riding my lawnmower down the street, then you are welcome to criticize, but it is completely irrelevant to bring it up here.
“Sauron and Feynn you are absolutely right. There exist SUV’s that get good gas mileage, and, in a few more years, they may reduce emmissions to an acceptable level, and heck, they may reduce how dangerous they are to other drivers. I could have been clearer in the OP, so grab yourselves gold stars.”
Hamlet - Thanks for the gold star, I’m gonna save it for the day when I finally trade my van in on a four wheel drive diesel Suburban. I think I’m going to put it just above the winch mount… 
I’m that guy with the huge dick who actually needs a vehicle like a Suburban… wait… there’s really nothing like a Suburban.
It’s going to be one of those four wheel drive diesel versions but be assured that I won’t be one of those people who has to leave their truck running for hours just because they can’t be bothered to keep the starting system in excellent condition. It wastes fuel, causes excessive pollution, and causes excessive wear on the engine.
My definition of “good mileage” is different from yours.
My (soon to be acquired) diesel Suburban will get about 20mpg in the city which is about what I’m getting with my Windstar right now. The Suburban will carry more people and considerably more stuff than my van does while burning the same amount of fuel. It will burn less fuel than a similarly equipped S.A.V. with a gasoline powered V8 (14mpg) and get equal mileage when it’s driven on the highway.
I’m also looking for a diesel VW Golf or Jetta that I can carry in the back as a spare or for when it’s just me running around doing errands.
I also understand the cons to driving a S.A.V. as it will cost more to operate, won’t accelerate like my van, and will require a greater stopping distance. But I’m not gettin one because it’s “sporty” so expect me to be drag racing it down the streets freeways. That’s what my T-bird is for…
- erm, Uncle Beer, I’m going to have to call you on this one. I googled and found a breakdown of energy consumption per GDP dollar per region and the US seriously lags behind the rest of the developed world:
http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw232supp.shtml
Only developing nations use more energy per GDP dollar than the US, and they tend to be the regions where a lot of industrial manufacturing is based these days anyway.
Again I must say that as an SUV owner (actually, we have two) I don’t feel the least bit defensive or guilty about it. I love my cars and if you don’t, then don’t buy one.
As for the comment earlier about libertarianism being a bullshit ideology, wow. No kidding?
PS- I’m not a libertarian, and I don’t think Airman Doors is either.
And we (the SUV-drivin’ assholes) know exactly how much gas we use! And it must be OK with us, because we’re still doing it!
And here is the reason I shouldn’t post before that first cup of coffee…
“But I’m not gettin one because it’s “sporty” so expect me to be drag racing it down the streets freeways.”
should be…
But I’m not getting one because it’s “sporty” so don’t expect me to be drag racing it down the streets and freeways.
Beeblebrox,
I’ve only had a little time to devote to your request for citations and authorities, but here’s what I’ve got:
In regards to the illicit drug trade resulting in violent crimes, I had to focus only on homicides and ignore any lesser crimes. I started withthis report. It outlines the number of drug related homicides that occur in the United States. Table 4 of the report shows that in 1994, there were 1,450 people killed in drug related homicides. By 1998 that number was cut down to 795. The discussion in the report after Table 4, indicates that the term “drug related homicides” includes both murders that occur directly during a felony narcotics offense and those that are brawls fueled by narcotics usage. It also does not include homicides committed by users attempting to get money for drugs. It also does not include homicides where the motive was drug trade related, unless they are specifically committed during a narcotics offense, which eliminates many of the gang related murders that are committed over drug turf. The report indicates, it is difficult to determine exactly how many murders are committed in the illicit drug trade, however, these findings were noted for their underreporting of murders in the drug trade. In total, 676 murders occurring during a felony narcotics offense in 1998 (4.8 % of 14,088), which is the LOWEST in the decade. 676 dead bodies that are directly attributable to the drug trade.
This report indicates that in their review of homicides that occurred in New York in 1991, and found that over half of them “were drug related, often associated with drug market transactions.”
While getting you these cites, I was struck by the irony that the more violent I show the drug trade is, the more ammo I give to those who argue for legalization. I found this NORML report which discusses a book which looked at murders over an 8 month period in New York, and found 6 of them were the sole responsibility of the illegal marijuana business. Although the marijuana trade is a small percentage of homicides, that is still 6 people dead in just 8 months. The study is also cited here.
If you’d like a more personal face on the violence inherent in the illegal sale of drugs, you can check these out. These problems are not only in the big cities and cocaine either. Chris McCulloch, 13, Blaine Talmo, 14, of Glendale, and Nicholas Markowitz, were all killed over drug debts. A Southern Illlinois University student was killed overr his marijuana dealing debt. You also have
Kevin Mills in Madison, Wisconsin. These are just a brief glimpse.
As far as large scale marijuana trafficking goes, the [The Dea created this report, which I referred to earlier.](http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/intel/99025/99025.html
Mexican marijuana.) Here’s just a brief introduction into the people who supply and transport marijuana: the Sonora organization, the and the A-F organization. There is also this paper which is another small introduction. If you’re interested, I’m sure you can google these people and see for yourself.
You had also asked for an example of LSD trafficking resulting in the death of police officers. I had a hard time finding examples that I could link to, but there was this case, where they stated:
I’m more than happy that the officer wasn’t actually killed, even if it doesn’t fit the exact wording of what you wanted. You can also check out, State v. McCombs ,253 S.E.2d 906 N.C., 1979, which has this fact situation:
The apartment was searched and LSD as well as marijuana were found. There is also U.S. v. Thurmond 29 M.J. 709 ACMR,1989, where a military officer was arrested and incarcerated after he had attempted to have a confidential informant to whom he had sold LSD killed. And this site which reads:
There are your citations for the proposition that the illicit drug trade is rife with violence and murder, and they are just scratching the surface. Anyone who remains to be interested can check out the DEA list of agents killed in the line of duty Some of them were murdered while investigating marijuana dealing.
And, just in case you are afraid I’m making this too much into a debate, here’s some vitrol for some of you:
I’m glad a typographical error about an extremely troubling part of my life can fill you with such glee. It is with great joy too, that I tell you to go fuck yourself with a chainsaw.
And WorldEater, I’ve already said: “stop with the drive-by insults and post something intelligent about them.” and you come back with another inane one-liner with no actual content and never respond to the points I made. So, you too, can go fuck yourself with a chainsaw. A rusty one too. And I look forward to your nexxt oh-so-intelligent response. Maybe you could go with “They let you have a computer in the asylum.” or “You make Jack Chick appear sane,” or some other idiotic insult with no basis in fact. Rest assured though, I’m done with you.