DST, conserving energy, and waking up in pitch dark

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
1

First of all, I’d like to say DST definately IS about frolicking in the sun in the evenings, not that that’s such a frivolous goal. People’s emotional well-being is tied to sunlight. However, only a wishful thinking stoned hippie will believe we’ve restructured our entire timekeeping to save a little on lightbulbs. In the summer all the electricity demand, by far, is in the middle of the day to run A/Cs, and since electricity plants can’t efficiently shut down every evening, it doesn’t matter much what we do with the lightbulbs.

But anyway, there’s some truth to the gripe that where you need sun is in the morning to be able to get up, not so much in the evening. Of course it depends on when you wake up, but if you get up at 7 then the new daylight savings laws are doing you more harm than good.

P.S. Isn’t ‘noon’ at 1pm in the summer?

2

Obligatory Link

See, I understand both the civil and economic reasons for bumping things back in the spring. What I don’t get is, why do anything at all in the fall? Why not leave things as they are and enjoy a shortened but still extra bit of daylight in the evening? I don’t think Unca Cece’ asplained that too good in his article, but thens agains, I am from the Hoosier state so I mights just not be gettin’ it. :smiley:

3

The reason for moving things back in the fall is that, if we didn’t, by deep winter we’d be working for two hours in the dark before the sun came up. That would destroy the energy savings we’ve built up over the summer by not turning the lights on until late in the evening.

I question whether there really is any energy savings. The only electricity not used by having DST is for indoor illumination. Everything else has to run the name number of hours per day, no matter what time it is. And with the increasing efficiency of indoor lighting, including but not exclusively the gradual changeover from incandescent to fluorescent bulbs, I fail to see how there can be significant energy savings.

Finally, Cecil’s comments about farmers being agin’ DST show a lack of understanding of the agrarian mindset. Understand first that farmers are naturally conservative, which means they cling to traditions and “old ways” because that seems to be what has worked. Only utter disaster will force most of them to change. Secondly, rustics are naturally (and justifiably) suspicious of anything that appears to tamper with the natural rhythms of the earth, moon, skies and sun. This is born of deep religious belief, which is in turn born of their dependence on nature; reluctant to consider that farming and ranching are huge gambles, they choose to believe that there is a God whom they can please and who will, in turn, make them successful more often than not. Finally, and this speaks specifically to the point, while farmers’ cows and crops may not recognize any particular clock, farmers’ minds do. Since calendars and timepieces were invented, farmers have used them to determine the pace of their vocation. Spring planting that may be done in April for eight years running may have to be delayed until May one year because that’s what Nature has decreed. While the time is right according to “earth time,” the farmers still consider it a “late planting” because it didn’t happen in April. The real consequence has nothing to do with calendar scheduling, but with the fact that a late planting may mean a shortened growing season. Similarly, if one has 150 cows to milk at 5 a.m. and only 45 minutes to get the milking done, a clock is used to measure the elapse of time, with known starting and ending times. If a milking takes too long, cows get irritated and they don’t produce as well. Any livestock that isn’t tended daily according to the rhythm to which it has become attuned becomes less serviceable, less productive, less economical. Contrary to urbanite superstition, farmers are NOT so attuned – they require some artificial measure of time to tell them when it’s time to start milking, feeding, etc. Nobody reads the sun and stars any more, and no farmer I’ve ever known felt the energy of the earth telling him when to do chores.

So dates and times are meaningful as measurements and benchmarks of productivity; screwing with the benchmarks is, frankly, a pain in the ass. That doesn’t mean farmers can’t and don’t make their own adjustments – they can and do. But it sure seems silly when the whole point is to save a few watts of power that could just as easily be saved by turning off lights when you’re not using them.

4

With modern technology, couldn’t we have watches and clocks that set noon to when the sun is in the highest spot in the sky each and every day? If the energy savings really did add up like that, I think this kind of gradual adjustment would be unnoticed by most people (less jarring than a 1 hour change all of a sudden) and probably more efficient. Half the year, the days would be slightly more than 24 hours, and the other half, they are slightly less.

5

Most time pieces can’t do that, so would have to be adjusted manually. But “Daylight Saving” doesn’t aim to have non when the sun is highest in the sky: it aims to have sunrise a bit before most people get up to go to work, so they have more sunlight after work.

In addition, setting the clock by the local position of the Sun would mean that every place would be on different times, unless they were on the same meridian. We don’t do that, because it’s more convenient for a large area to all be on the same time, with changes in time zone only every hour.

6

I always liked Ben Franklin’s analogy of daylight savings is like cutting one end off a length of string and tying it to the other to make it longer. Here in Arizona we don’t want that e-e-e-vil summer sun up so late since we don’t start frolicking outside until it’s down – or pretty near – so we don’t go on daylight savings time.

Unless you’re in the Navajo nation where you do* – unless you’re in the Hopi nation within the Navajo nation where you don’t. In Indian country you just sort of go on God’s time until you can ask someone who cares what the time is.

*Overlooking that fact last summer, we arrived at the Hubbell trading post fifty minutes after it closed. Since we were staying at Chinle anyway, it was no big deal to go back the next morning.

7

I guess this just shows how out of touch our society has come from agrarian life.

My family is from Vermont - cow country. The objection I heard from farmers regarding DST was related to cows and milking schedules. It was entirely practical.

Cow’s can’t read clocks. Depending upon the farmer and schedule that he has his cows trained to milk 2 times a day (or maybe 3 although I didn’t know any farmers that did it that way). When I say “trained” it is really sort of a biological imperative coupled with conditioning, as the cows do become uncomfortable when full of milk and will head from pasture to barn for milking, etc.

So essentially if Farmer Joe was milking his cows at 4 am (and yes, farmers do get up to milk that early) and the clocks get set forward, he will have to start milking his cows at 3 am. Maybe over time he could slowly shift the cows milking schedule, but he would likely have to do that back again when the clocks return to standard time.

Yeah, it’s only an hour but somehow that hour is a heck of a lot more uncomfortable at 3 or 4 am in the morning.

As I recall, part of the reason for the early start also had to do with the dairy and their trucking schedule. Figure that if the dairy started work at 7 or 8 am and wanted their milk shipments all there by that time, and figure in the time to pump milk and the trucks to haul it to the dairy - and you have milking time rather early in the day.

8

The only bit that makes any sense here is the possibility that it’s affected by having to interface with other people’s schedules. After all, the farmer doesn’t need to change the clock by an hour simply to be able to milk his cows at whatever time is right and good - he can just go ahead and do it when appropriate, regardless of what the clock happens to say.

9

To which one can only reply - Duh.

The farmer doesn’t live in isolation. Waking up on a schedule that becomes, in effect, one hour earlier … only appears that way because they have to interface with the rest of society.

But the cows don’t know that or care.

That is the resulting source of the inconvenience.

10

You know what? I just had an idea.

Experiment has shown that humans, left to themselves, like to stick to a schedule that is slightly more than 24hrs, preferring to go to sleep and wake up later each day.

It is plainly obviuos, then, that clocks should be set back by 15 minutes every day. We’ll call this Stoner Savings Time, mandate it as law, and enjoy the diversity of lighting conditions and pleasant mornings that ensue. We could also abandon timezones.

11

Citation for this claim? :dubious:

12

Indeed, it’s true. From wikipedia:

So, it’s 25+ hours if you’re an adult and allowed to use the lightswitch. 24 hours 11 minutes if you’re not. Of course that’s average and there’s a number of people who like to go to sleep early (tho isn’t that usually from depression?).

13

Yep, I think we’re in agreement. Of course, the “milking time” is a human artifice in which cows are conditioned to respond to human needs, ie., being milked on a regular schedule twice a day. Non-dairy cows left to nurse their calves will nurse several times a day, just like human mothers. But animals have an inate sense of “what time it is” according to the world that humans, including farmers, don’t have. If you condition milk cows to be milked at 4 a.m., they don’t know when you change the clocks. You have to then accommodate them because they don’t read clocks, but they know how long it’s been since the last milking. they’ll go 12 hours, but not 13, and they won’t be ready in 11. So yes, getting up to milk at 3 a.m. is a royal pain in the butt, whereas getting up to milk at 4 a.m. is perfectly normal, and getting up to milk at 5 a.m. means you miss the truck.

And that’s just milking cows. The condition of the field at any given time of day can dicate when you can inject anhydrous ammonia, plant seeds, spray by air or ground – an hour off the beginning of the day means an hour added to the end, and vice-versa. Ultimately, farmers oppose it because it is a huge inconvenience without any material gain to them.

14

OK then, ‘Duh’ it is.

15

New time pieces could have a setting to either add or subtract a small amount each day. Midsummer or midwinter, you would change the setting, or your time device would be smart enough to change it automatically. All else could remain the same (timezones, etc.)

16

The 28 hour day.

I’m seriously considering trying this during my 2 week festival camping trip this summer. I always miss the nighttime events with my regular schedule.

17

So this year, we turned the clocks ahead a month or so early, and are going to keep them there a month or so later than usual.
Does anyone have any citation to any documentation of specific energy savings expected from this?

18

I’m glad you asked. A fellow Doper provided this link in one of the numerous DST threads that pop up twice yearly, so I can’t take credit, I just bookmarked it.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120406767043794825.html

Clocks were set ahead 3 weeks earlier than usual and one week later this past year.

I don’t have a problem with DST in the summer, but the start and end times keep getting pushed further out. It seems as a society, we are working longer (and starting earlier) and have longer commutes, making our wake up time much earlier than previous generations. Having colder, darker mornings doesn’t help save energy (IMHO).

Lighting is only a part of the energy picture, you also have to think about heating and cooling costs. Back in Ben Franklin’s time, DST made a lot more sense as lighting was the only consideration.

19

Fantastic. Thanks for the link.
A year or so ago I was talking with a guy who insisted that the main proponents of keeping DST longer in the fall were candy manufacturers, in order to sell enough candy for 1 more hour of trick-or-treating.
No cite, but appears at least as well-supported as the supposed energy savings. :smiley:

20

Perhaps a hundred years ago, sure. Now, though, farmers have to be on time for Elks Club meetings, choir practice, Insane Clown Posse concerts, divorce courts, the kids’ school bus, etc. just like city folks. So far, nobody has gotten cows to understand DST. If you milk them an hour later, they don’t merely get peeved, they’re in pain. I haven’t discussed this with any cows, but human nursing mothers bear this out.

The concept of DST predated refrigeration and railroads. Until the railroads, nobody cared much about uniform time, but RR schedules made it important.

When Cecil said TDB, was it “too damn bad,” or was it “true dat, bro”?