Ooooh burn! I clearly didn’t know who I was up against. I yield to you and your rapier-sharp wit and odd use of spaces!
Read it again, cowboy. If it makes more sense to you, I’ll put it like this:
Any questions?
Yes. “Odd use of spaces” ? What’s up with that?
Ease down, Slacker. You made your point, it got lost in the noise, it sucks, get past it. I agree that there was no particular need to make a point of sex or nationality, but it really doesn’t matter. Going 'round about semantics isn’t going to further the convo.
Duck Duck Goose
You are right. Sorry I did not read that post closely. However, I stand by the suggestion to talk to the kid about this eye rolling and lack of enthusiasm. Regardless of the make-up of the team, the kids should not choose to shut down, roll eyes, and engage in actions that send the message… I disapprove of what is going on. There are appropriate ways of dealing with disapproval or disappointment. Eye rolling, withholding effort, and generally pouting, are not the right choice. And yes, it is a choice. I think it is good practice to remind kids that they do have some choices about emotions. This could be empowering for them. Otherwise, you are allowing this “Mr. Prick” to work some sort of “magical” spell over 12 eager and enthusiastic kids.
I do thik that’s a good point, Jacksen and one which perhaps grienspace has missed. Regardless of the admittedly frustrating circumstances, it was a wonderful opportunity to teach sportsmanship.
Grieving process? Because they were denied the chance to stomp on their pathetic competition? It is completely obvious that the girls were there to WIN not to PLAY, since they were “grieving” about not being able to win. They weren’t happy to be out there playing volleyball, they were only happy when their team could win.
You watched your child, the one you taught to play hard and try her best, roll her eyes while on the court, and obviously not try at all. You watched this and said nothing, nay, you agreed with her attitude. You’re not happy with the situation, slack off, it’s OK.
Oh, and I don’t suppose the other team’s girls might have been unhappy because the “good” players hated playing with them, right? Nah, because it’s really easy to be all smiles when half your team is made up of miserable mopes, made miserable because they were forced to actually play with YOU. (ok, i’m guessing at this part, sue me)
Honestly, this is not really that BIG a deal, and I understand that the girls got disappointed at not being able to play with their team, they are only kids afterall. However, that’s the point at which you suck it up and try hard anyway. The people on your side of the court ARE your team, regardless of where they came from. To not play hard, and let your team down, is bad sportsmanship. The mixup game could have been fun, it could have been challenging, 2 teams of similar overall skill, a mix of skill levels, trying to outdo each other. What challenge is there in playing a team that’s not nearly as good as you?Challenge is fun, challenge makes sport worthwhile.
Look kids, I know you came here to play as a team, to go for a win and wrap up the season with a perfect record. I know you’ve worked hard for this moment. But the girls on the other team just aren’t as good as you and we need to be sensitive to their feelings. Remember how I’ve told you to give it your best no matter what. Well I lied. I’m sorry. If you guys didn’t listen to me so damn good I wouldn’t have to be telling you this. But now that we come this far, we should behave like adults and give up the aspirations of the team in favour of our pity for the other school.That’s what Mia Hamm would do don’t you think? Forget the June 3, 2000 Pacific Cup game against Canada. Now chin up girls and go out there and play your best with your new team. see if you can perk up those girls. Give em a high 5 now and then and tell them that they’re doing good. That’s what Mia Hamm would do.
yah right
I guaran-fucking-tee that if Mia Hamm found herself on the opposite side of the field, playing for someone else, against her own team, she would play her best. Period. To do any less would insult the integrity of the game, and sully her own image. You ALWAYS play your best, and I think she would be insulted at the implication that she would EVER not play her best.
With respect to your team’s perfect record, did the mix games result in your team getting losses added to their record? I foolishly assumed that the opponent forfeited the games, knowing they couldn’t win, and just wanted to have a couple of fun games instead. You’re right, this is a travesty, mixing up the teams and saddling your school with losses it didn’t deserve! Frankly, I think your coach screwed up royally in allowing this to happen and jeopardize the perfect season.
Cheesesteak, you’re putting to much of an adult perspective on this . Sure, there is some question as to how the volleyball season is going to be represented in this year’s yearbook, but that’s not what was on their mind during the games. Its like what the fuck was all the excitement about going into the game. Like ya pays to see the Rolling Stones and you get Pat Boone.
And Mia never let up when her team trounced Canada. Or when they trounced little old Panama earlier this month. For shame. It’s only professional players that can switch loyalties at the drop of a hat and even that is difficult for some.
grienspace let me give you an example that popped into my mind. You’re in a weekend softball league, you show up at a game, and the opponent says they only have 8 not 9. What I would do is accept the forfeit, lend one of my extra players to their team, and play the game. I would fully expect that player to give it a good go and try his best.
Mia didn’t let up, and if it were an exhibition game (as your volleyball match was, since it certainly shouldn’t count in the record) with mixed teams, I would expect her to play hard then too.
In your case, what I see, is a team forfeiting the remaining games as lost causes, and trying to have a fun, more competitive game going in its place.
Cheezesteak, your softball scenario is an excellent example of what I would expect from my child, and I certainly would expect that she and everyone else would try their best. But in this case it’s not some arbitrary adult decision resulting in the cancellation of an official game. There is nothing else that can be done about it. No adult to be pissed off at. That is very significant I think, and perhaps I’ve failed to bring that point across previously.
Mia Hamm is 30 years old, has been playing soccer since she was a kid, and is a career soccer player.
When La Petite Grienspace is 30 years old and is a career volleyball player, then I will expect her to be able to play volleyball with anybody, anywhere, and not bat an eyelash or feel disgruntled.
The speech I would have made to the team: “Mr. Prick really wants to do this, for whatever reason, and sometimes we humor other grownups even if it sounds like a dumb idea. I promise we won’t do it again, okay? Just this one time.”
Goose, you know I love you. And I disagree.
The speech I would have made: “You are the better team. By far. You know it, I know it, and the other team definitely knows it. We’ve shown conclusively that they don’t have a prayer against us. Now, while it’s fun to win, it feels really shitty to lose, and more to be humiliated–twice. So instead of humiliating them again, and instead of going home, we’re going to split up, play a game for shits and grins, and try to teach these girls something of our skills. It’ll give them a chance to play with a shot at winning, it’ll give us a chance to learn some new ways at building team dynamics, and it’ll help them be a better team that might be a little more competition for us next time. You already knwo how to win against these girls–now let’s see if you can learn to help them win too.”
Oh. My. GOD.
This is a fucking GAME. For 12 year olds!! People…can’t you listen to yourselves? It’s volleyball. Does anyone really care?
All right, all right. Your kids worked hard and they want to do well. But this is hardly a travesty. It’s not the NBA, or the NFL, or whatever. It is a children’s game.
You asked earlier if a football game for high schoolers should ve viewed as just fun? My opinion? Yes. It is just a game. Most high schoolers are NEVER going to play well enough to get into the NFL. That’s a one in a million shot. Sure you can put it on your resume, but you really think a college (because that must be the end goal, right?) is going to care? I go to college now, and I don’t think I’ve met a single person who’s even been to one of the games or even gotten in on a sports scholarship.
Maybe I just can’t see it. I’ve never considered sports all that important; my parents always made it clear to me that my schoolwork was always my first and foremost responsibility. Had I ever played on a game and something like this had happened, I don’t think either of them could have even concieved of getting angry. In my family, something like this is nothing.
In regard to the eye-ball rolling- yes, this is fucking obnoxious behavior. Why is it that pre-teens are definitely not little kids one moment, and then suddenly excused for being assholes because they’re not professional players the next? And the most foremost question on my mind: Why do you care? I don’t mean this in a rude way. I mean it in, something run of the mill happened. And you’re taking it as though it’s a life or death matter. In ten, fifteen years, will this matter? It’s just a step along the road.
Yeah, kids at this age are shallow and superficial enough to buy into that group mentality. But you’re adults. Why do you care? You’ve got your own lives, your own jobs, interests. Don’t take this the wrong way, but a kids’ volley ball match is NOT the end of the world. And all right, your daughter was a little upset. Fine. But don’t you guys realize how little this matters in the grand scheme of life? You could die tomorrow, you could get cancer, you could win the lottery- a thousand things, great or horrible could happen to you. And this is what you’re concerned about? Forgive me…maybe it’s my really laid-back upbringing, or perhaps I’m really slow, but I just don’t see the problem.
I can’t believe all the touchy-feely politically correct hippe bullshit CRAP in this thread. Ya gotta CRUSH your opponents. You gotta GRIND THEM INTO DUST! Ya gotta MAIM, SLAUGHTER AND DESTROY and if your baby-faced wuss of an opponent starts bawling, YOU MASH THEIR FACES DOWN INTO THEIR OWN FALLEN TEARS LIKE THE SCUM THEY ARE AND DANCE ON THE GRAVES OF THEIR SELF-ESTEEM WHILE YOU LAUGH THE BOLD LAUGH OF THE VICTORIOUS!!!
Seriously, there’s nothing wrong with winning.
Hmmm… DDG and Grienspace, say I was the coach of your girls team.
Say it’s a tight game against the crosstown rivals. One of your supergirl daughters screws up on a couple points, and I pull her and put in the girl that never hardly plays, and she screws up and costs the game.
I am betting you would be pissed. What would you say? Pick one:
-
“Supergirl SHOULD NOT have been pulled because she is too good.”
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"Damn, Coach why did you put benchgirl in, she ain’t worth a fuck, and OMG we LOST!
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“No prob coach, my daughter screwed up, and you were right to replace her.”
Be honest.
**
Um, not keeping score and mixing the teams up already shattered the integrity of the game.
Marc
**Look kids, I know you came here to play as a team, to go for a win and wrap up the season with a perfect record. I know you’ve worked hard for this moment. But the girls on the other team just aren’t as good as you and we need to be sensitive to their feelings. Remember how I’ve told you to give it your best no matter what. Well I lied. **
I guess this has presented a good case for having some guidelines in place that define what the volleyball league will be about. It seems one coach viewed this as more of a competitive arrangement, while the other wanted it to be more cooperative. Compromise is sometimes worse than one way or the other.
I am a coach. This mixing of teams is not an option in our middle school program. However, this kind of thing is done in the 6th grade… for field days. It seems this thread has given us all an opportunity to share our views about the value of competition. I have, in my experience as a player and coach , been on both sides of the blow-out. I would never “run the score up” on another team, but I would not expect or allow my players to play soft either. We usually play the second and third string, get back in a half- court zone defense, etc. I have been beaten by other teams that leave their best players in and press full court for the entire game. The younger the kids, the sicker this is. I once was beaten badly by a coach that had hickies all over her neck. I thought I would vomit. Her kids taunted my players and we really got run out of the gym. This is a very difficult situation for a team to be in, but still, no excuse for self-pity. These are the moments when you have a chance to truly show some character. You come back during the next practice with that bad taste in your mouth and you just figure out how to get better. You remind your players that performance should not define self-concept. You teach your kids that they are comprised of worthiness and value regardless of class-ranking, SAT score, fashion, or athleticism. I have worked with kids that make the winning shot and think that makes them a good person. Also, miss the winning shot and believe they stink. Such great life lessons to be taught in these situations…
“If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same” - Kipling
Who said anything about not keeping score? Oh and to the mixing of teams, that’s exactly what they do in the pros for all star games. Yes, the games aren’t the hard fought battles of a close divisional rivalry, but dammit the guys play, and don’t roll their eyes and pout. Do you think that Michael Strahan and Warren Sapp (they had a silly war of words this year) went to the Pro Bowl that either one would pout at being on the same team, the same line, together with that “jerk”?
NBA players have summer games all the time, pickup style games. They mix up the teams, keep score, and don’t televise, promote, or track any of it, not that I know of anyway. You can damn well be sure those guys are humping it as hard for those games as any normal game.
If you have two teams lined up on opposite sides fighting their hardest to win, you have integrity.
DDG, the girls should strive to be more like Mia, and try their best anyway. They should at least be told that it’s unsportsmanlike to not try during a game, they should not be supported for acting like they did.
This is planned. The players come to these games already knowing that they are going to switch sides. It’s not thrown arbitrarily into the middle of a season’s game.
jacksen’s example of the fifth grade field day is one of a game where the kids know what they are getting into. We have no evidence that grienspace the younger would have rolled a single eye in a similiar situation.
Some people have suggested that we treat the little darlings as if they were five-year-old T-ball players. Others think that they should be as laid back as a grown-ups weekend softball league sans beer. Neither works for comparison.