Dune Part 2 [Open Spoilers]

Cafe Society
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Some more comments on the stylistic choices and these two movies as a whole.

I was not thrilled with the choice of black and white for the Harkonnen world. I was even more disappointed by the planet of bald, bulbous heads. That’s even worse than the whole planet where everyone is a redhead.

Besides looking ugly and dumb, it makes no sense. Harkonnens are described as animals - for their behavior and morals, not their appearance. And Jessica being the Baron’s daughter is less sensible.

See, Herbert did this thing called foreshadowing. So Jessica is described as having bronze hair, and later the Baron is described as having red hair when younger. Then when subsequently her heritage is revealed, it fits.

Also, I didn’t get Paul’s line about they are Harkonnens, so that is how they will win.

Anyway, the challenge of adapting Dune has always been that Dune is very internal thoughts book. There are a lot of internal monologues, and a lot material happening in thoughts. That is difficult to adapt to some firm of dialogs that does not feel forced. The old TV trope, “As you know, Bob, …”

Lynch tried to do that with voice-overs, but it’s cumbersome.

Also, there is extensive exposition in the novel to explain things, especially as the story unfolds. That kind of info dump can be tedious in a movie.

The challenge for Villenueve was to take a source material that is long, complex, and dense with ideas and try to capture the essence while forcing it to fit the fine constraints of the medium.

So what ended up is that some of the plot elements are truncated, some subplots snipped. Add to it the choice to say less, and sometimes plot elements don’t make sense.

For instance, the scene where they first attack the crawler, and are running around getting shot up by guns on the 'thopters and trying to get a shot with their rocket launcher, and then as soon a the aircraft is downed, they open up on the crawler from several locations with lasers. Someone who doesn’t know the story is left to wonder why they didn’t just use the lasers on the 'thopters, not realizing the aircraft have shields and the outcome that would produce.

Another example is when Paul uses the voice on Reverend Mother Mohaim, and she then blurts out “abomination”, it isn’t clear what she means. In the book, that is specifically being used to describe Alia being pre-born (i.e. exposed to the water of life in eutero). So there doesn’t seem to be a real reason for it to show up in this movie.

Similarly, the importance of the Family Nukes and why Gurney has them hidden away, and what it means to use the nukes is lost. Because the Great Convention isn’t mentioned, one is left to wonder why Paul doesn’t just nuke the Emperor and Harkonnens.

Also, I get that dragging the nukes out is a way to avoid digging into the details of the worm/ spice cycle and how water could be used to destroy spice production completely. Easier to use a means people have heard of than give extensive lessons on worm biology.

But the exclusion of the Navigators Guild in the finale is felt. One of the reasons Shaddam capitulated is that the Guild flexed their power when Paul declared he could and would destroy the spice. They absolutely require it and are addicted to it.

I think the movie does work with the story presented, but I’m not certain how much is because of what I know that fills in the gaps.

And I guess that’s why, as pleased as I am with this version, I still kinda like the Syfy version better. It spent more time on the details and nuances, which makes the storytelling better.

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Though not as cumbersome as another common trick, which is to insert a really dumb character that is constantly asking why they can’t just nuke the Emperor, or use the lasguns against shielded enemies, etc., with the answers patiently explained by someone more knowledgeable (usually some nerd character like Kynes). Thankfully we didn’t get that either, but given that all the solutions to exposition are awkward, the viewer just ends up in the dark.

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Great posts @Irishman, but I have to quote this hilarious typo:

(emphasis added.)

The whole Dune series has themes of self-destruction:

  1. The Hero/Savior Paul destroys himself and the people he’s saving because he sees the future.
  2. The oppressed Fremen destroy their sacred Shai-Hulud when they ultimately transform Arrakis.
  3. Bene Gesserit destroy their breeding lines by failing to recognize the humanity of their subjects.
  4. The Emperor and the Harkonnens destroy their Houses by colluding together against the Atreides.
  5. Lady Jessica leads to the downfall of her Duke by having a son.

and many more at smaller scales. The Dune series does not have redemption, yet someone it’s not depressing (at least not for me). The characters and cultures are interesting by themselves and by how they interact.

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May I just say how happy I was to finally see Anton Chigurh and Llewelyn Moss come face to face for more than a split second (and without trading shots, even!).

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Trying to post from phone. Swipe seems to come up with a lot of choices. Missed one.

Excellent observation.

Not my favorite casting choice, but passable.

What’s interesting is that Spice is a longevity drug - it greatly extends life, and does it by extending the aging cycle, not just adding on years.

In other words, do you become a 120 year old man and have the body of a 120 year old so you continue to agree on the normal life span curve? No, it reshapes the curve so a 120 year old has the body of a 40 year old.

Christopher Walken looks like an old man, whereas the book describes him as looking 40. But that would conflict with audience expectations without some exposition in the life extension, so I guess that’s another nuance changed in the name of simplifying for the movie.

Well, it’s all a matter of perspective. They did give more coverage of others besides Paul and Jessica. They brought in the Emperor and Princess Irulan, they showed Harkonnen brutality and the Baron’s cunning. They even had RM Moim comment on counseling Shaddam to eliminate the Atreides.

They also mentioned the elements of Fremen culture, including the north/ south divide.

Which, by the way, is a simplification for the movie. The book didn’t need two different cultures so much. Most people were very devout, because of the strictness of Fremen culture. There were just some who doubted Paul was the fulfillment of the prophesy. But just about everyone came to believe. However, this allowed an easier way to show different attitudes that were prevalent when Paul was brought in.

But you are correct, they didn’t cover any of the exposition that was missing from Part 1.

Also, though, I think that impression was mistaken. It was more of a good by Dune faithfuls than an abstain point

Yes, that’s the frustrating part about the adaptation, that the subplots and backstory woven into the book leave holes when they are gone.

Paul actually being a descendant of the Baron is part of the Bene Gesserit breeding plan subplot. It feeds into any Paul is able to be the Kwizatz Haderak a generation early.

It also sets up events in Children Of Dune.

The Apollo weapons are tied up in the Great Convention and Guild subplot. The GC limits the use of atomics against people. That’s why Paul doesn’t use the nukes on the Sardaukar or Emperor. To do so would trigger the entire Landsraad (i.e. legislature) to retaliate and exterminate the Atreides. However, their presence is what alliws the Fremen a sneak attack with the giant worms. Paul had to eliminate part of the Shield Wall, the mountain range that encircles and protects Arrakeen from the worms and the storms. Paul needs advantages provided by both of those elements, so he needs to breach the Shield Wall.

His justification is that they are not being used on people, just geography.

Yes, Feyd Rautha is a lot more cunning and less grotesque in the book. Note that Feyd is supposed to wed the Atreides daughter, and that child be the KH.

It was mentioned that shields were a bad idea in the open desert because they call Shsi Hulud, so most fremen didn’t wear them.

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FWIW, I always imagined the 300-year-old Miles Teg in Heretics of Dune as looking about as old as Walken did in this movie.

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Variety says that Dune Messiah is definitely getting made.

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Ninjaed

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I kind of feel the same way. Like the big reveal that Lady Jessica is the Baron’s daughter. I think it had more importance in the book because there was a subplot where Gurney, Thufir Hawat, and others thought she might be the traitor instead of Dr Yueh. It the context of the movie, I’m not sure why it even matters at this point and just opens up a whole bunch of other questions (maybe covered in other books) like whose Lady Jessica’s mother? Why doesn’t she know her parents? Does the Baron know she’s his daughter?

Lady Margot Fenrig is yet another character who just sort of shows up out of nowhere and we’re just supposed to know why she’s important (or we just assume she is just one more Bene Gesserit sister).

This is kind of a big one for me because it seems like unnecessary filler:
Why did Chani’s friend Shishakli stay behind to be caught as a spy? To make sure the Harkonans actually did occupy Seitch Tabr?

To delay the Harkonans for a few minutes before they decide to NOT jump in their ornithopers and chase after the rest of the Fremen who rode their worms out of their hours ago?

To drive home the point of how sadistic Fayd-Rautha is, just in case you haven’t watch the last 30 minutes of the movie?

It just seemed like an unnecessarily long and illogical scene that served no purpose other than to kill off the character, which they needed to do if the film is going to end with Chani’s along and estranged from Paul and his jihad. She can’t have a BFF talking about how much of a dick her ex is.

And where and when did Chani learn to fly an ornithopter to go meet Paul after he drank worm-piss so she could heal him with her magic tears? That seemed oddly out of place.

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The thing is, Chani is being used for a purpose that was never in the book. She’s the voice of anti-fanaticism and anti-imperialism. Villeneuve made the movie with a strong “native” viewpoint and Chani is the means of conveying it, right down to using her for the opening narrative of the first movie instead of Irulan.

None of the book Fremen knew that their prophecies had been implanted by the Missionaria Protectiva (except the Reverend Mothers who weren’t telling). Herbert was clear in that the Fremen were a bunch of fanatical super-fighters being led around by their religion for the benefit of their cultural “betters.” In the book, only Paul and maybe Jessica seemed to have any regrets about this.

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So it isn’t covered well in this movie, but other versions explain that often Bene Gesserit are raised without knowing who their parents are. This is done for a variety of reasons, but include the breeding program where the BG might want to drive a close relative cross to reinforce certain traits. That’s the plan here, where Jessica was to have a daughter to cross with Fued-Ruatha.

Most certainly the Baron didn’t know Jessica was his daughter. Indeed in the book it’s unlikely he even knows he has one. The BG collected his offspring in the same manner Fued’s was obtained. It isn’t stated, but it is hinted elsewhere that Jessica’s mother might have been the Reverend Mother, before her transition. In not sure what the EU says.

Why the reveal is important for the movie it’s that they spend a lot of energy building up the Harkonnens as villains as a whole, irredeemably evil. Yet it turns out Paul is one, which is then a dilemma as Gurney and the Fremen both have a deep-seated hatred for Harkonnens.

Yes. There’s no mention of the Count, who is the Emperor’s closest friend, and who is stated as someone who could have killed Paul, but defied the Emperor’s order. Lady Fenrig was also the prior predecessor of the house the Atreides move into on Arrakis, and leaves a message for Jessica in the greenhouse room.

Yes, that part didn’t make sense to me. Presumably to see what all they did, but then she got caught? I suppose it was sort of meant to indicate her change of status from doubter to follower, but it just felt empty. Just another chance to show Fued’s viciousness.

It did feel a little off. Note that the Fremen did know how to fly them and collected them in the book. They just were very reserved in their use because they were saving them, and fuel was expensive while worms cheap. Remember Kines was her aunt and had access as an Imperial servant.

True. Villenueve wanted to address that part of Herbert’s message, so he made two cultural factions of Fremen, and played them against each other. That’s a bit more formal of a structure to the diversity of opinions on Paul’s status in the book. To have a group of skeptical Fremen allows exploration of the process by which the Fremen as a whole became worshipers.