Jerevan, if we have one more thing in common, just one more thing… lol 
I didn’t see the TV miniseries, so I can’t comment on that one.
I loved the original three Dune novels. I thought they had great depth. The David Lynch movie lacked that.
A movie that could capture the depth of the original movie would be long indeed, and even then many things would have to be explained. (narration) I really don’t know how they could get away without narration. The same goes for the actors reading their characters thoughts into the microphone. That whole “Character X thought such and such” seemed to be such a big part of the book.
I have a thought which I have shared before, but never received any doper response. Am I the only one who finds remarkable resemblance between Princess Irulan and Anna Comena? Anna Comena told the story of her father, the emperor, Alexius, in her book The Alexiad. Much of Dune is derivative, and this seems obvious to me, but nobody’s ever commented.
Have read all the Dunes (except third of prequel) and damn near everything else I could find of Herbert’s.
Enjoyed The Lynch version of Dune for it casting - Sting, Jose Ferrer, Linda Hunt as the Shadout Mapes, Dean Stockwell, Patrick Stewart and yes, Lyle MacLachlan as Paul. The plot points, such as “the weirding way” being corrupted to some sort of sonic gun, were a real disappointment, as was the rain at the end.
But a couple of the scenes - particularly the hunter/seeker in Paul’s bedrooom - were EXACTLY as I had pictured it while reading Herbert’s classic, so it gets lots of points for that, as well as decent worm CGI. The young Alicia Witt as St.-Alia-of-the-knife was also nicely done.
All in all a plus for me. As always, YMMV.
Two things.
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Paul was taught to use swords because shields make las-guns unstable and conventional ammunition bounces off shields because it goes too fast.
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Paul used a nuclear weapon to destory the rock towards the end. Nothing to do with sound devices.
Stick with the books, they’re much better for you. If you had to make a decision, I would pick the Lynch film - while it fails to coherently tell a story or make us give a s*** about these people, it is an interesting failure which is far better than the dull “success” of the TV miniseries.
The Lynch movie was far more involved with the mystical aspects of Dune, but this fell apart when Lynch inexplicably removed all the Islamic/Arabic context that you find in the novel. He also has, somewhat, the same type of world on the screen that exists in my mind - a feudal society based upon technology that hasn’t evolved for thousands of years and that has banned computers to the point of making it a religious, almost genetic revulsion. Unfortunately he cast people not renowned for drawing empathy from audiences, and then placed a number of ugly (true to the books, but still ugly) prosthetics on the actors. I also think Lynch’s worms were more impressive, but the seams do show after 18 years.
The mini-series was more in spirit with the “prequels” being “written” by Herbert’s son and Brian Anderson(?), in which the prohibitions against technology are pretty much removed, the politics are totally torn asunder (Atreides befriending Ixians? WTF??? (from the prequels, the mini-series has Paul flirting with Irulan long before he meets her in the novel - like in the first hour or so.)) The mini-series is more like having different people with the same names do vaguely the same things but for vastly different motives. I didn’t bother to watch the last two hours because the preceeding was just so bad.
The fact is any translation will lacks the quality of the original. Whatever his faults as an author, Herbert is definitely the voice of Dune and when you read the novels you are really reading about Frank Herbert, by Frank Herbert, and that can never be replicated by any visual medium that exists today.
Thank you; I knew it was some '80’s band of renown, but couldn’t remember which one (I wanted to say Queen yesterday, but knew that wasn’t right).
In all fairness, there are things I enjoy this movie that are not goofy. The overall look of it seems more right to me than the miniseries does–the worms, for example, and the stillsuits except for the lack of headcovering. The scene where the Reverend Mother tests Paul is one of my favorite non-campy moments.
Watching the miniseries, I frequently had the impression that they were going out of their way to avoid anything that might recall the Lynch film, even changing lines of dialogue that had been taken straight from the book, as in the above scene. I think this undermined their own work. The overall impression I have of the miniseries was “beige.”
About book-to-film adaptions: For me, the important thing is that the film capture the spirit of the book, not that it necessarily be a scene-by-scene, line-for-line representation of the text. In some cases, trying to copy the text in too much detail can injure a film. I’ve had several conversations about this point lately with friends in comparing FOTR and the first Harry Potter movie: In the first case, a lot of elements were cut or compressed, moved to another place in the story, or even completely changed, but you can see why the film-makers made these choices for the sake of keeping the plot moving and making the focus more Frodo-centric, and their choices are for the most part successful. The other seems to me to try too hard to get in all the “good parts” of the book, whether or not they actually carry the plot along, and so you have a lot of neato-looking set pieces that slow things down.
It should theoretically be possible for some gifted and imaginative film-maker to do a spirit-but-not-letter-perfect version of Dune.
“Paul used a nuclear weapon to destory the rock towards the end. Nothing to do with sound devices.”
I never really understood why the Dune universe never had to worry about random acts of terrorism - lone gunmen willing to take out a city for their cause.
Thanks for the correction Capt Garf. It has been at least 10 years since I read those books but not nearly as long since I have seen the movie and the miniseries. It is confusing when I get the cross polination thing going like that.
Spoilers aplenty!
But IIRC, the use of atomics against an enemy was banned. Nuking an opposing House resulted in the Emperor and all other Houses destroying your House. Houses keep nukes around only for legitimate destruction of any one breaking the treaty. Paul points out that he has not broken the treaty. He nuked an uinhabited mountain range. Further as leader of House Atreides, Dune is his domain. Legally speaking, he didn’t bomb an enemy. He blew up a rock on his own property. (Of course destroying the Shield Wall lets massively destructive storms into the cities, but he never actually bombed anybody.)
RE-Cat Milking
Piter DeVries was the proud inventor of residual poison. Victims require daily doses of antidote for the rest of their lives. However, I remember nothing about the antidote being administered through a cat.
Re-Baron Harkonen’s Grease Shower
Been a year or three since I saw Lynch’s film as well. Are you referring to the semutta scene? -The Baron is flying in circles around a machine spouting a very thick smoke column. He’s describing his plan to give Dune to his non-Sting heir. Suddenly Sting, dressed in corrugated speedo, steps out of the smoke. I didn’t understand the scene either, until I noticed a servant playing a psuedo-accordion. The smoke is semutta-a drug which is activated by certain sounds. The servant is playing music designed to provide the best trip for the Baron. IIRC, semutta isn’t mentioned once in Lynch’s film.
Chronos
The SFC miniseries did use still suits. They’re just really cheap, undetailed suits. They look something like tie-dye surgical scrubs. They’re thin cloth, but I always assumed that those were meant to be still suits. I can understand not spending the money Lynch’s suits must have cost. But, covering all the Fremen in aquarium tubing painted black and gray would have been within the Sci Fi Channel’s budget, wouldn’t it?
My Opinion-
It has been a while, but I have read from the first word of Dune to the last word Chapter House: Dune (which will look odd if I forget to disable smilies). I’m not sure Dune can be successfully adapted to film. Lynch and SFC both succeeded in some ways and failed miserably in others. Kyle Mclahlan’s Paul does and says things that contradict important points of the book(EG Taking the water of life in public. The miniseries got that one right. Paul does it alone, without warning anyone. All but his apostles, the Fedayken. believe he’s dead. Come to think of it, it’s a very Christian event in a book filled with Islamic ideas). BUT, Kyle’s Paul has IMO the right personality. He is resourceful, clever, brave and strong-a fitting heir to Leto and the Emperor, and a man the Fremen would follow into battle against any odds. OTOH, the SFC version includes Feyd attempting to assassinate Baron H by placing a shielded, poisoned needle in the upper thigh of a 13 year old boy the Baron is going to have sex with. That, and the conversation they have when the Baron confronts Feyd about it, reveal important things about the two characters.
Paul!
Ah-hah!
He’ll save every one of us!
DocCathode: “But IIRC, the use of atomics against an enemy was banned. Nuking an opposing House resulted in the Emperor and all other Houses destroying your House. Houses keep nukes around only for legitimate destruction of any one breaking the treaty.”
I mean, the lone nut scenario. For example, lets say the Emperor is visiting Arrakeen, and so the Harkonnens, in order to rid themselves of the Atreides mess once and for all, send in a lone gunmen to shoot a lasgun at the shielded Emperor. Have your spies plant info that another one of your enemies (or, better yet, the Fremen) was responsible, and you can beat your breast in lamentation as you ascend the throne.
Well you said lone nut blowing up cities. As for lone nuts and assassins going after individuals, happens all the time.
But, as another Doper pointed out, only slow moving solid objects can penetrate shields. Not to mention, Sardukar bodyguards and mentat advisors make it very difficult to get within range. The Emperor has no need to ever appear in public. He only needs to concern himself with the Houses, the Bene Gesserit, and especially The Spacing Guild. IIRC Tleilaxu and Ix are powerful as well, but hold no formal political power. They have things no one else has(gholas, Tleilaxu eyes, etc). If you want to buy from them, you do as you’re told. If you want to prevent them from selling to your enemies, you do as your told. The Tleilaxuns and Ixians do not always ask for favors and their goals are often a mystery. The Fremen have power, but no ships or equipment. Outside of these groups,(preScattering anyway) no one has power, money, weapons, or the means to get any. A lone nut would have to get bombs, guns, etc from one of these groups. All of them keep close watch on their armories.
Baron Harkonnen does try to kill the Atreides. When the Harkonens give Dune to House Atreides, they leave all kinds of traps in the palace. These include seekers and a squad of commandos.
As I've already mentioned, Feyd tries to kill the Baron. Feyd also arranges an assassination attempt on himself.
Without revealing spoilers, Children Of Dune involves a few powerful groups staging assassination attempts.
PlusSomebody uses a stoneburner. Which IIRC is an ilegal type of bomb that, when one functions properly, blows up planets. It also gives off a specific radiation which blinds humans.
In (I think) God Emperor Of Dune, a group kills their target by subtly twisting the mind of a trusted aid. The aid ends up believing that their master cannot die. The aid eventually pulls a gun in order to demonstrate this.
House Atreides was destroyed by the subversion of a close and trusted aid, Dr Yueh. As a Sukh doctor, Yueh's mental conditioning made it impossible for him to inflict pain. Somehow(details are never given. Torture and the knowledge that his wife is a hostage would not do it.) Piter (Herbet mentions that he was trained by a school which specializes in "twisted" mentats) found a way to break the conditioning. Everybody else thought such a thing was impossible. Yueh wasn't a lone nut, but he was responsible for the destruction of House Atreides.The pseudo psychic powers of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood would smell ou out for the rat you are.
But DocCathode, if you recall correctly, the intersection of a shield and a lasgun would disrupt the Holtzmann Effect causing a nuclear explosion. I seem to remember from the Dune Encyclopedia that the experiments on the Holtzmann Effect had to be moved off-planet after somebody shot a shield with a lasgun and destroyed the city. There was also the scene in the first novel where Duncan Idaho plants shields so that Harkonnen lasguns would disrupt them.
The stoneburner was used in Dune: Messiah, and resulted in Paul going blind. It too is based on the Holtzmann Effect (in case you care. )
Dune: Lynch version
First point of exposure to Dune, thought it was a pretty cheesy looking movie but the story was interesting enough to get me reading the books.
They really could have done so much better with the movie now that I think about it. The “sound weapons” (which are not in the book by the way) were extremely gay as well as the characterization of the Baron Harkonen. There were many smaller issues that I could nitpick on all day but it would be pointless.
I mean, the movie got me to read the books right?
Sci-Fi Miniseries:
Looked better maybe, perhaps a little closer to the book. Loses it in it’s own mediocrity and in adding parts to the story that simply do not belong there. My girlfriend hate this version so much I am not allowed to speak of it. Suits me fine.
Anyone hear anything about the Children of Dune miniseries coming out?
The Books:
Original Frank Herbert:
One of my favorite series, Herbert creates a universe that is not only expansive in scope but in time itself. I was a little disappointed reaching the end of the last book and realizing that no more by Frank Herbert would be forthcoming, he doesn’t exactly tie up all loose ends.
Prequels:
These were ok. It was nice to get a bit more of the backstory to the original dune but in many places it becomes obvious that this collaborative effort cannot keep up with the caliber of the original. Technologies that aren’t supposed to come to pass for thousands of years are suddenly invented and then lost; an alliance between Ix and Atredies comes out of nowhere. I let these pass for the sake of the story, but the story itself ends rather weakly I thought. Not bad, for hacks with access to Herbert’s notes.
The Butlerian Jihad:
Am I alone in finding this one entertaining? It is so far removed from anything that takes place in the original Dune series that I can’t bring myself to criticize what they are trying to do. As long as no one develops an artificial spice called “Amal” I will be fine with it.
I loved the sound weapons! I thought those were cool as hell. “Even my name is a killing word.” Oh YEAH that’s power.
Yes, now that you mention it, I do!
The introduction of Irulan as a character in the Sci-Fi movie, when she appears only at the very end of the novel, illustrates one of the difficulties in adapting Dune to the screen – or, more generally, the differences between drama and prose forms in telling a story.
The primary difference between the two forms is the way in which one achieves whatever exposition is necessary to an understanding of the story. On film, this can be accomplished through dialogue; but too much dialogue for the sake of exposition alone becomes obvious and off-putting for the audience. Some exposition can be accomplish through plot and the spectacle (that is, visually), but these also have their limits. Thus a story told through film has to be one in which the backstory and other information can be laid out for the audience in a way which seems natural and believable, without the exposition drawing attention to itself as a necessary device.
Prose offers many more avenues for complex exposition. Bits of expository information can be interspersed with actual dialogue; descriptive passages can serve to provide information beyond mere description or “scene-setting”. The chapter headings in Dune, many of which are excerpts of Princess Irulan’s works, help to flesh out the universe of Dune on the printed page, in a way which is hard to approximate on film. In prose the reader’s perspective can be easily be “inside” a character’s head, if the author wishes to make the character’s thoughts intimately known. In our narrative tradition this seems quite natural and expected; on film it is hard to do without resorting to voice-overs or ridiculous dialogue.
Of course, in prose one still has to be careful not to let exposition become too obvious, dull or distracting, but written words allow the exposition and the aspects of plot, character, dialog and spectacle to be closely and seamlessly interwoven in a way which sometimes film cannot approach. It really depends on the nature of the story and how information is relayed in the novel.
erislover: yes, and suppose we do. Then…?
I liked both versions of “Dune” for very different reasons. Lynch’s version was very poorly written and incomprehensible at times, but the production design was fantastic for its time and the casting was 100% dead on.
The Sci-Fi Channel version suffers badly from miscasting, bad acting, absurd costumes and very cheesy theatrical sets (I love the “desert” sequences…literally a few actors standing on a pile of sand with a amateurishly painted backdrop behind them) but I did like the script, even with all of its deviations. Frank Herbert’s original novel was VERY dialogue oriented and felt almost stage-bound at times, with some major events being referred to in passing instead of being fully sketched out. I liked how Harrison expanded and detailed some of these points; for instance, the Fremen raids on Harkonnen spice mining facilities and attacks on Harkonnen desert patrols, fully sketched out and explored in the miniseries whereas the book only just mentioned the fact that such attacks were taking place by having characters talk about it afterwards.
I’m not sure the the “Alan Smithee” version of Lynch’s “Dune” is so popular, though. Some of the added scenes are cool, but some of the extra footage aren’t even actual scenes but badly edited “paste-ups” of outtake footage.
For instance, the scene near the beginning that depicts the Reverend Mother flying to Caladan after the Guild Navigator’s visit. All they apparently did was take a out-of-context shot of the Reverend Mother and edit it together with a duplicate shot of two Harkonnen pilots in the cockpit of a ship (in fact the same shot from later in the movie, taken from the scene where Paul and his mother are being taken to the desert to be killed…if you look, you can see the two of them bound in the background!) and finally added a outtake shot of a airborne ship taken from the climax, and cut this mess into the film as a supposed “scene”.
There’s also a added scene of what’s supposed to be Fremen watching the Atredies arrive on Caladan…never mind the fact that they’re all dressed in loose robes instead of the black stillsuits and don’t have blue eyes; it looks like a shot from Monty Python’s “Life Of Brian” or something.
That combined with the fact that a lot of violent footage was removed (particulary from Baron Harkonnen’s introductory scene) makes this an unwatchable mess for me. Lynch’s theatrical version was bad enough, but this isn’t an improvement.
As for the prequel novels, bleh. The plotlines are all right, but these guys haven’t the first clue to developing interesting characters. Everyone in the novels is so superficial and one-note that it feels like reading a soap opera screenplay. Would be acceptable for your average sci-fi paperback, but the beauty of Herbert was his wonderfully rich and complex characterizations; no one was ever simple, and no one ever had just one motive for their actions.
The prequels would probably adapt very well to the big screen, though…which was presumably not a accident on the part of its authors.
I’m having the most fun introducing my wife to science fiction/fantasy by way of movies. She knew nothing about Tolkein and now FOTR is her favorite movie. (and she wants to read the books!)
Last month we spent a Sunday afternoon watching the Sci-Fi version of Dune and she enjoyed the whole thing very much. We had some minor gripes about the accents, but I examined the credits and found out that they’d filmed the thing in Eastern Europe, so they must have gotten much of their casting done there, too.
Elaborate costumes are part of the fun of sci-fi movies. Bo Derek hosted a short documentary on AMC about costuming in movies and at one point one designer said that Sci-fi was the favorite to work on because you can design something completely new and exotic. (Remember how much fun that French haute couture designer had with “The Fifth Element”?)
If they don’t line up exactly with how the book describes them, well, so what? Moveies being a visual medium, they have to have some amount of visual interest. I mentioned to my wife that on a desert planet you’d want your water-reclamation suit to cover your eyes and she replied that no actor wants to be in a movie where his face can’t be seen. 
And she had no trouble understanding the convolutions of the plot. When we first started watching I’d ask her if she caught the whole bit about why spice was so important, how the Atreides and Harkonnens were feuding, and other things. She eventually got tired of me asking and gently told me to knock it off. At that point I re-proclaimed my love for her because she is smart.
The David Lynch version was designed, IIRC, by H. R. Gieger, the same fellow who designed the look of the “Alien” movie. Most reviews I’ve seen of it mention how “gorgeous” a movie it is, but say it is empty of a (coherent) story. I agree with a previous poster in being of the opinion that this is a script problem at it’s core.
The Sci-Fi version, I’ll agree, was well designed AND had a good script, but suffered from spotty acting.
Biggest problem I had with the plot deviating from the book was the killing of Leto II. Who’s going to become God-Emporer?
Leto II is born in Dune: Messiah
Leto I is born in Dune and killed by Sardukar