Ruadh, there are still continued and repeated comments by many politicians trying to score points about Ulster Resistance and their initial links to Paisley’s DUP - then importing weapons that probably remain in use today. Whether of course, as you say, there will be any negotiating with them, is yet to be seen.
Every mention of violence on the news up here gets equally condemned by members of all parties. I certainly don’t see it (loyalist attacks) as getting “support by silence” or not being an issue – it is discussed a lot and is equally deplored by any who speak on it. I don’t see Loyalist weapons as a separate issue from Rebublican weapons but neither do I see it as being treated as an any less serious issue than IRA weapons.
Violent attacks do still continue in both communities, BTW, regardless of cease-fire.
I agree with ruadh, that there is far more attention on IRA weapons and the use of them, then there is on loyalist paramilitary groups’.
And I think that the whole decommissioning issue is actually more one of words and saving face and not seeing to submit to the other side at this point in the negotiations, than about actual weapons.
IRA weapons haven’t been used in a long time, they’re keeping to the cease fire, aren’t they?
I suppose both communities have to learn to trust one another, but so far, nationalists have definitely shown more willingness to take the process forward and have acted more upon that than the unionists have.
I am optimistic though, maybe even for the first time. I do believe both the DUP and Sinn Fein will be able to work something out.
As Twisty said, SF definitely has become more mainstream, and nationalists were comfortable voting for them because of the decommissioning acts and their obvious attempts to work things out peacefully.
And who knows, a deal between the DUP and SF may seem ironic, but it could be stronger and longer lasting than the deals between the UUP and SF.
Stranger things have happened.
what?
don’t look at me, i can’t give you any examples.
Very cute Aro, but wholly beside the point. Unless you’re seriously suggesting that Sinn Féin are refusing to press for Ulster Resistance decommissioning for tactical reasons and not, say, because Ulster Resistance doesn’t exist anymore.
Anyone can rattle off a quick condemnation. James McMahon’s death just over a week ago seems to have already fallen off the radar screen. I don’t see any real sustained outrage from the parties about these attacks.
I think the fact that the IRA are expected to turn over every last remaining weapon of theirs now, in the absence of neither the smallest amount of loyalist decommissioning nor even a loyalist ceasefire, shows that there is a difference in how the two are treated.
If I’m not mistaken (I can’t find a cite at the moment, but will keep trying) isn’t this the fella that claimed to be associated with the Contos and the Contos said he had nothing to do with them? Which would make his claims that he was shot by the Provos rather suspect, IMHO.
There are ceasefires on BOTH sides - but unfortunately there are also breakaway groups on both sides who aren’t ready to give up violence. So, while the majority of both sides have stopped killing each other - there are hardline groups who just don’t want to play ball.
The sectarian violence that continues here is rarely mentioned on the main news , or in the UK newspapers - but that doesn’t mean it’s gone away.
but ruadh and I are talking about IRA weapons, and IRA violence, which are the only things being negotiated, and the only thing (maybe) in some sort of control of SF
Yes, there still are sectarian attacks, from and on both communities, but those are indeed more commited by splinter groups and “hoodies” than the IRA, and still the IRA is held responsible for the violence. The DUP and UUP make it out to seem that if all IRA weapons are gone, ALL weapons will be gone. As if peace is something only the IRA can produce, or as if IT’s the only obstacle.
What would you have people do after a situation like that? It was a sickening attack (happened about 200m from where I am sitting now, BTW) and most people would rightfully condemn it outright - no one supports that kind of thuggery. But what can really be done in practical terms to end this kind of random sectarian attack by politicians? And would continually condemning it make the situation any better, or have any effect other than act as a constant, sad reminder to the family of the victim? I doubt it.
As you mentioned before, there are only one main political party involved in negotiations who are linked with a private army - and it is those who face the question of decommissioning most.
To be honest I have no idea who he is, you may be correct. But his ‘experience’ was not uncommon - there have been several other reports recently of similar ‘self-policing’ events in Republican areas - this was merely the first I turned up in a quick search. Of course, as Elfje says, there is no reason to assume any such beatings or punishments are implicitly ordered by the IRA hierarchy.
I don’t agree with this point - I don’t believe anyone thinks that total IRA decommissioning will actually lead to absolutely no violence or crime in our society. The sticking point is really in having elected officials in a democratic government who have historical & continued links with illegal armed groups, regardless of their ceasefire status at present.
Well the perception at least in the nationalist community is that they aren’t even trying. I did not see any non-republican politician comment on the statement last summer by PSNI Superintendent Roy Suitters that they know who killed Gerard Lawlor but don’t consider it worth their while to try to prosecute, for example. I have not seen any unionist or British politician address the cases such as that of the Saunders family in Stoneyford who say they have been told by the PSNI that the person chiefly responsible for the ongoing attacks against them can’t be prosecuted because he’s an informer. I have not seen condemnation from any unionist or British politician of the fact that cheating on a quiz show can get you kicked out of the British Army while shooting an unarmed 18-year-old Catholic in the back gets you a promotion. Maybe they can’t do anything in practical terms but for God’s sake couldn’t they at least try to look as though they were trying to?
In these cases the victims’ families are usually the first to complain about the lack of condemnations. It’s not like they’re just going to forget about their loss until some politician speaks about it and reminds them.
I’ll take it then that you are agreeing with me after all that the issue of IRA weapons is treated differently.
True, but as you know, there has always been a tacit agreement that internecine violence didn’t “count” as far as the ceasefires are concerned. There was never a question of the UDA ceasefire being declared over when they were just attacking the UVF, either.
It would be a lot easier to believe this was really the UUP’s sticking point if they hadn’t helped elect a PUP Deputy Mayor. I know it’s not quite the same thing as the six county Executive, but it still makes the “guns before government” mantra ring rather hollow.
A number of loyalist groups have announced a ceasefire, and the very first act of decommissioning was apparently by a loyalist group - see reference below. There have also been talks since then on this subject, apparently.
“The Loyalist Volunteer Force began decommissioning on 18 December 1998, but until the IRA announcement in October 2001, no other group had made a decommissioning initiative. The Commission verified and destroyed guns and explosives for the LVF.” http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp2001/rp01-114.pdf
I would like to see things moving more quickly, though. The majority of the targets of loyalist violence were, for a long time, other loyalist factions … I’m not saying this to try to excuse it, but to show how little logic is involved in this whole sorry mess. Republicans have also used violence on rival factions in their own movement.
Politicians have said that loyalist disarmament will happen automatically when the IRA disarm, but I would prefer to see it happening in parallel.
The LVF gave up a few guns a few years ago. It hasn’t stopped them shooting people (from the nationalist community as well as their own). The loyalist ceasefires have gone on and off and to be honest I’m not even sure what the “official” status of most of them is now. Certainly the LVF are not on ceasefire at the moment. I don’t think the UDA are, either.
But again, it’s not up to the politicians and anyway, even Billy Hutchinson said some time ago that he didn’t believe the UVF would decommission even if the IRA did. Sure they’d just point to all the armed dissident groups … and even if they went away the loyalists would still need the guns to protect their drugs trades.
I think THEY seem to think they are (The UDA that is) but,
In terms of treatment within the Party negotiations I would agree they are being treated with more, shall we say, importance, than the armed Loyalist groups - mainly due to having representatives who can, if not speak directly for, at least forward opinion on behalf of the IRA. But I don’t think there are any less wish or effort being made to see all guns gone from Loyalist paramilitary groups alongside those of the IRA or other armed Republican factions - but greater import is given to those held by the IRA as they are represented by a party with an extremely significant mandate.
This cunt opposed it as well along with the majority of Irish people but then again the UK has a great and noble history of helping Ireland when they’ve been hassled by outside influences… oh hold on a minute. I suppose it takes a cunt to know one. While my government disagreed with me why should I, SF or the majority of my country want to be any part of a illegal war of aggression based on shite? Neutral my bollocks! What do you think the chances of letting the Iraqis refuel in Shannon on a bombing raid to Washington(if such a thing was feasible)
Well my grandfathers brtohers bones are in the ground after been put there by a English cunt in a black and tan uniform but that didn’t stop him going to Burma in WWII. The US left you guys getting the shit kicked out of you for quite a while before they entered the war for their own reasons. We weren’t exactly totally neutral as you’d find out if you read the thread that ruadh linked to.
I should say he wasn’t shot why trying to do damage to them, which would have been fair play IMO. Nope, he argued about his front door being kicked in and his sister being hit during a raid of the Buckingham Street area(inner city Dublin). He got seven colours of shite knocked out of him, got a bad infection and died.
May I do a Bart Simpson here and write a hundred times:
I must not post at the pit while sober.
x100
Responding to the OP I would like to agree that it is a lot of fun that the unthinkable has happened. Dr Paisley, the man who has always told the truth and has always predicted the future with uncanny accuracy, is going to stop the IRA unwrapping their presents. The ghastly old bigot!
I of course am neutral in all this, my only involvement in Irish politics being on the afternoon of the South Key bomb (thanks Gerry and Martin). My five year old nephew was cut by flying glass. I tried to explain to him what it was all about.
‘‘Its because you’re in the black and tans’’
There also doesn’t seem to be any move to do anything about the number of legally held weapons in loyalist hands. And then there’s Andre Shoukri’s release last week. For the others, he’s a leading UDA thug who was found with a gun in violation of his licence terms, but the judge let him go after ruling that he held it for his own protection! Can you imagine say Dessie O’Hare getting away with this.
You leave a little rant for the weekend, and come back to find it’s all grown up into a full blown argument
Sorry, folks, I was just getting stuff off my chest.
For anyone who cares, I voted (postally), but being from North Down (Aro, D’dee is indeed a very odd place) my nationalist vote didn’t really add much to the mix.
For what it’s worth, I also think living in a Marxist, irish-speaking United Ireland (a la SF) would be a nightmare.
Yep gotta agree although it would never happen. The most we’d get is a coalition gov. where SF are the minor partner. I mightn’t have a huge problem with that once they didn’t have major influence. We could do with a tad bit more left wing thinking though. This right wing fuckers in power at the mo. are really starting to piss me off.
