Why all the different formats? Why not just create one format that allows erasing, re-recording, all the functions? I just deleted an entire DVD-R, figuring that once I deleted it, it would be free for re-recording, but no. Now it seems that I have a disc that is perfectly blank, yet cannot be recorded on. So what do I have? A disc good for a serving dish, with a little hole in the middle?
Well, not unlike VHS and Betamax, different people had different ideas about what would be good and none of them prevailed significantly over the other; this translated into a demand for multi-format recorders and players, which translated into reduced pressure for any of the formats to go away.
BTW…+R and -R discs are write-once - like CDRs - it just isn’t possible to erase and rewrite them; this is a limitation of their physical makeup.
First of all, you need to understand the differences between:
Read only. DVD-ROMs in this case. What you get when you buy “Dodgeball.”
Write once. DVD-R and DVD+R. Once you write them, you can only add to them* (in some formats).
Rewrite-able. DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM. These you can erase and re-use several times.
You have confused the 2nd and the 3rd.
There is an actual need for the latter two systems to be different. Write once DVDs are easier for devices to burn and other systems to read. Cheaper to make. Rewrite-ables are a lot trickier. More expensive. May not be readable on some players.
As to the +/- difference. Format wars. Fortunately, most burners sold today can burn both types. OTOH, the DVD-R type is more widely supported by players. OTOOH, DVD+R format allows more interesting burning options. Etc.
Note that another format war is breaking out. Sony has Blu-Ray while Toshiba has HD-DVD for hi-def/high density blue light recording. Sony should win on technical merits. Ergo, the US population will pick the worse format.
Which is why the makers of inferior formats don’t through in the towel. They know they have a better than even chance of winning.
(There was an effort to set an international standard for blue light DVDs. But the standard was not going to make everyone happy, especially MS, and wasn’t going to be ready in time. MS desperately wants to own the home entertainment market, so any bad things you hear about Blu-Ray is 99% MS glurg.)
*So you can’t actually erase one. The data is still there, just slightly hidden. If there is no room for more data, you have a coaster.
Sounds like someone has been keeping up with the Format Wars lately. As it stands now, iit’s basically Sony + Everyone Else backing Blu-Ray and Toshiba + No One Else backing HD-DVD. At this point, the Format Wars are taking place in engineering conference board rooms and board meetings. The actual performance of the media isn’t as much an issue these days as is DRM, licensing fees and overall studio acceptance. Given that Blu-Ray will likely have a huge headstart by being included with the PS3 - giving Sony a rare (recent) victory for one of its proprietary formats. Toshiba will be likely to cave in the next few weeks, as Sony is apparently willing to give them a fat share of the licensing fees if they’ll just go away.
And if you want to bring “technical merits” into it, I don’t know why you think Sony should win. At this point, HD-DVD leads Blu-Ray in DEMONSTRABLE capacity (30GB to 25GB), although Sony keeps “promsing” 50GB discs, but they’re nowhere in sight… just like backwards-compatible Blue-Ray players. The ability to play current gen DVDs in HD-DVD players is part of the HD-DVD spec and players are on the near horizon that will do just that. Although Sony is promising backwards compatible players, no one has seen one, and Sony hasn’t mentioned in it in months. In fact, it’s entirely likely that there will be two types of Blu-Ray players = ones that can play current gen DVDs and ones that cannot. That’ll make the consumers happy!
Then you have the issue of production. Most DVD players sold in the US are built in China these days. China doesn’t like Japan, and they really don’t like proprietary formats like Blu-Ray. Two of China’s largest DVD player manufacturers announced that they’ll support HD-DVD. Given the high costs of switching over production lines, it seems that the first generation of Blu-Ray players will be more expensive than their HD-counterparts. Unless Blu-Ray gains such a tidal wave of popularity that Chinese factories can afford to switch from HD-DVD to Blu-Ray, don’t expect to see a cheap Blu-Ray player any time soon.
[QUOTE=ftg]
(There was an effort to set an international standard for blue light DVDs. But the standard was not going to make everyone happy, especially MS, and wasn’t going to be ready in time. MS desperately wants to own the home entertainment market, so any bad things you hear about Blu-Ray is 99% MS glurg.)
So “ftg glurg” is somehow better that “MS glurg”? I hate to break it to you, but MS ranks about 23rd in the list of “important companies involved in the DVD Format Wars”. Their VC-1 HD codec supports both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. There are certainly issues where Blu-Ray could be improved (see above) and if MS wants to pound on those things, they should go ahead. This whole argument about Microsoft vs. Blu-Ray really isn’t any different than the Firewire vs. USB argument from a few years back. Apple developed Firewire, then proceeded to charge exorbitant fees for the use of Firewire products. It left such a bad taste in OEMs mouths - not only to pay money to Apple in the first place, but to pay A LOT of money at that - that OEMs began putting pressure on Intel to come up with a substitute. Although USB was already under development at the point, the OEM complaints were enough to really get the ball rolling at Intel. OEMs weren’t concerned with anyone trying to “own” the home entertainment market, they just didn’t want to pay exorbitant licensing fees to a competitor - and neither does MS want to do the same to Sony.
Not that any of this really matters. Big Media - Sont, Time Warner, Paramount, etc. - insisted than all high definition DVD players (of any format) must be HDMI-only. HDMI really only began appearing in new TV sets this year - even a top-of-the-line HDTV bought 16 months ago probably doesn’t have one - so the market all of these companies are fighting for is somewhat miniscule at the point…
Unless someone markets an HDMI -> DVI\Component converter box. Which would be funny, because by definition such a box would violate the DMCA. So we could buy it at Radio Shack, but not talk about it on the SDMB.
Recordable DVDs make poor serving dishes (holes notwithstanding) as the recordable layer contains toxic heavy metals.
But yes, the confusion of formats is indeed due to format wars, and the preferred format varies according to geographical location. Europe favours +R/RW, Japan favours -R/RW, and the US favours DVD-RAM.
+R/RW formats are designed to be backwards-compatible with normal DVD players, though new designs of DVD players tend to have -R/RW compatibility too these days. This is the best format from a technical point of view.
-R/RW formats aren’t as robust (all the best patents were snared by the +R/RW camp), but mostly work OK. They have no advantages over +R/RW that I can see, although I think initially -R discs were cheaper than +R.
DVD-RAM enables you to record and play at the same time, but from a technical point of view is a horrible standard, full of patent workarounds and marginal techniques.
The Blu-Ray recorders I’ve seen in development have been DVD compatible, and some even record DVD too. This requires a separate laser, as DVDs use 650nm red lasers, and Blu-Ray is about 410nm violet, but any DVD player that also plays CDs will have 2 lasers on board also. Blu-Ray has been in development for years now - I was doing some work on it about 5 years ago, when the lasers were in the very early stages of development, cost $2000 each, and lasted about 30 hours.
Almost interesting factoid: DVD-R/RW beat the DVD+R/RW camp to market by a sizable margin, and were able to establish the -R/RW format first. Strictly speaking it should be pronounced “DVD R” or “DVD RW”, just like CD-R is pronounced “CD R”, but then in a stroke of marketing genius, the +RW camp called their system “plus RW”, which by inference meant that everyone started referring to their competitors as “minus RW”. The -RW camp were furious, but there was nothing they could do about it.
If you look at the little badge on a DVD +R/RW recorder, you’ll notice that “DVD” and “+RW” is actually two separate badges. This is to avoid possible infringement of the copyright of “DVD-RW” - the actual copyright name for DVD+RW is just “+RW”, and the DVD is added just to show that it does DVDs too. Sneaky, huh?
DVD-RAM never caught on to any degree in the US. By far the most popular recordable discs (by sales) are DVD-Rs with DVD+Rs second. You don’t even see ads for DVD-RAM in places such as the Sunday CompUSA ad. Almost all burners support DVD-R and DVD+R. DVD-RAM burners are a speciality item.
According to videohelp, there is a better chance that a DVD player will support DVD-R than DVD+R (but supporting both is very common).
So OP, essentially, the SDMB has failed you, there is no consensus on what is really going on, good luck in your travels.
Panasonic recorders use RAM discs (although some newer models use -RW discs now). The price for the blanks was a bit steep at first but are now comparable to regular rewritables. I found an LG multi-format burner that will read them. I use them the RAM discs to transfer video (and sometimes audio) to the computer.
Interesting. Maybe it’s dying as a format then, as it never caught on at all anywhere else in the world. Good riddance to it, as it’s a horrible format, and it’s one bonus feature (simultaneous record/playback) is made obsolete by hard-drive recorders.
Most recorders now are dual +/-RW format. The pragmatics of marketing has overcome format loyalty for OEMs.
DVD-RAM caught on in Japan.
OTOH, I think the OP was quite well answered by several people, especially given the limited and confusing information in the OP.
Also interesting! This must be a market-driven thing, as the preferred Japanese manufacturers’ format is -R/RW. If a consumer has a choice between a machine that deals with 3 formats, 2 formats, or 1 format for more-or-less the same price, then they’ll choose the one that seems the best value every time. It’s the only reason 2 and 3 format machines exist, because most of the big optical storage OEMs have a vested interest* in only 1 of the 3 DVD formats.
*Patents, licencing revenue.
Yesterday I paid about $164 for the Toshiba D-R4SU, which Does DVD-R, DVD-RW, and DVD-RAM. I haven’t figured out how to use all of the –RAM features (titling and saving selected portions, deleting other sections, etc.) yet, but it seems that –RAM is the best for when I’m pretending that my new toy is a TiVo.
What are the benefits of using –RW if I don’t plan to watch my recording more than once or on another device (other than the TV that it’s connected to)?