Eagles in LOTR

Cafe Society
1

After repeat viewings of the first two installments of LOTR I have become a fan. However, I have a lot of questions. My wife tells me to “read the books”. So I have started with the Hobbitt.

My first question is why they don’t use the eagles to fly to Mt. Doom and drop the ring in? Gandalf summoned one to help him off of Isengard. I watched that part of the Fellowship on DVD with the commentary on and they explained it away as the Eagles were their own kind and balked at the idea of becoming taxis.
But this is no taxi ride, were talking about the exsistance of Middle Earth here!!
Any insight from die-hard Tolkien fans out there why the Eagles never played a bigger role???

(I’m a slow reader and am only half way through the hobbitt)

2

The Eagles might have succumbed to the influence by the ring, and dropped it on Sauron’s doorstep instead!
IMO :wink:

3

Because Glenn Frey and Don Henley couldn’t stop arguing long enough to book a plane to Mordor…
:smiley:

No, seriously, Tolkien made it clear that the eagles weren’t a taxi service and only helped when they did because of fierce personal loyalty to Gandalf.
Frankly, I think it was a huge plot hole that he had to make up a reason to cover.

4

I’m no die-hard, but I always assumed that Mordor had its own aerial defense in the form of those pterodactyl things that the Nazgul rode; plus you would assume that the Dark Lord had other tricks like giving them the Evil Eye or something.

Bur if Tolkien says that the Eagles were jerks, who am I to argue?

5

I have to agree with Terrifel. Presumably, Suron would have noticed something as blatant as giant eagles flying straight toward Mt. Doom and would have used some magic or sent some minion to deal with the situation. Frodo succeeds because he is beneath Sauron’s notice and he (Sauron) never suspects that Gandolf & Co. plan to destroy the ring.

After the ring is destroyed, however, Sauron’s power is broken and the eagles have no problem entering Mordor.

6

So:

  1. For all we know, Eagles are just as likely to be corrupted by the Ring as anyone else.

  2. Sauron could intercept the Eagles using the Ringwraiths mounted on the flying beasts.

and

  1. The Eagles are independent, and can’t be ordered around by just anyone.

This last one’s more complicated than it seems. While Tolkien never comes right out and says it, the Eagles appear to act as servants or messengers of the gods (the Valar).

(Digression: the Eagles were created for Yavanna, a sort of nature goddess, when she was afraid that men, elves, and dwarves would destroy nature. The Eagles and the Ents were created as a safeguard. So one reason the Eagles are so uninterested in the affairs of men is that that the Eagles are supposed to be guarding nature, not men.)

The only reason Gandalf is able to order the Eagles around at all is that Gandalf is also a servant of the gods. But the gods have put strict limits on what Gandaf is allowed to do, and presumably the same is true of the Eagles as well.

Mind you, none of this is explained in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. It’s scattered through Tolkien’s letters and the Simarillion. Which is why this question gets asked a lot.

7

I thought the eagles were proxies for Manwe not Yavanna.

I remember that she thought mighty trees might house eagles but Manwe claims that only the mountain clefts would be high enough.

I never did read the “letters” though so YMMV.

8

It was Manwe who told Yavanna the Eagles were going to be created, but the whole reason the subject came up was Yavanna’s concern about the forests being destroyed.

As to which one is technically the Eagles’ boss, I’m not sure. I’m mired halfway through the Simarillion. :slight_smile:

9

I agree with most of the comments made here. Plus one more. Eagles do not make good beasts of burden. Gwaihir could only bear Gandalf or others relatively short distances, High Pass to Carrock, Isenguard to Edoras, Moria to Lorien. A full journey would take a fair amount of time, weeks most likely. And it would not be unnoticed. Even if they could find safe resting places each day, even if an Eagle could overcome any air defenses Mordor may have, Sauron would notice the approach of even a single hobbit-laden Eagle. And a reception party would be arranged at the Cracks of Doom. And no Eagle (or group of them) was going to overwhelm Sauron and his Nazgul. What chance the quest had was in secrecy. The use of Eagles would have destroyed that chance.

The Eagles were also a collection of powerful, proud and haughty creatures. They are exactly the types you want to keep away from the ring. Although we don’t know what effect the ring might have on them, if I’m Elrond or Gandalf I wouldn’t want to test them. The last thing the quest needed was for an Eagle to pull a Boromir a couple of miles up in the air.

And even if the Fellowship had been desperate to risk it, the Eagles may have refused. They were fiercely independant and had no particular love for men or elves. In fact they frequently raided the Beornings who hunted them in response. Bilbo and the rest in The Hobbit were only helped, to oppose the goblins, who the Eagles hated. Gandalf was later helped only because of his personal friendship with Gwaihir that developed during The Hobbit. If asked they may have agreed to carry the ring but that is by no means certain.

However I do wish Tolkien had explicitly said this somewhere in the books. There were a dozen people at the Council of Elrond who were individually familiar with the Eagles, and even more who knew Bilbo’s story. Gloin or Gimli would have been ideal characters to bring it up. All that would be needed is someone to ask about the Eagles, and then Elrond or Gandalf could have shot it down. Ah well, just a simple nitpick to an otherwise excellent yarn.

10

In addition to the reasons given above, I don’t think the supreme being in Tolkien’s subcreation would have appreciated this shortcut. The whole time Frodo and Sam are trekking to Mt. Doom, the race of men undergoes a series of severe trials as they prepare to inherit Middle-Earth from the immortals. If destroying the ring were all that was important, El Supremo could’ve sung it out of existence in a flash.

Gandalf thought providence played a big role in if, when and how the ring was destroyed, and I don’t see any reason to doubt him. If

11

Eagles are Maiar, just like Gandalf, Saruman, the Balrog, and Sauron. My friend has told me they serve Manwe, but I’ll ask her about Yavanna. She knows more about Silmarillion and Morgoth’s Ring better than most Christians know about the Bible. Y’know sometimes I think Tolkien was just making it all up. So anyway, as noted before, the Eagles are more likely to protect nature FROM men, than to help men; maybe even loftier and more reticent to aid or interfere in humanoid affairs than Ents. So when they did swoop to help, it was like the hand of God giving the final push necesary to bring the heros and the story safely home. The Eagles seem to me to have a distant quality similiar to the detachment of the Elves.

?A burden you have been,? he answered, ?but not so now. Light as a swan?s feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you. Indeed, I do not think you need me anymore: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.?~Gwaihir, TTT

12

Bartman is spot on here. The Eagles may actually constitute a menace so far as the Ring is concerned. They may or may not be Maiar; Tolkien never says. They were created by Manwe to be his servants, since Manwe controls the airs and winds of Arda, and he needs the Eagles to be his eyes in Middle-Earth and report back to him on various doings. Their allegiance is to him, nobody else.

About Yavanna- she has nothing to do with the Eagles. She may be responsible for the creation of Ents, the Shepherds of the Trees, since she’s concerned that the Children (elves and men) will just wantonly slaughter all her creatures. Tolkien never comes right out and says this, but it’s certainly implied. Yavanna gets the idea to make (or ask to be allowed to make) Ents after she hears how forgiving Eru was for Aule’s jumping the gun and creating the dwarves. At one point in the book, Yavanna mentions that her trees will be tall and strong enough for the Eagles of Manwe to nest in them, to which Manwe replies that Eagles will only nest in mountains, not in trees. Is this the source of confusion, maybe? But Yavanna has nothing to do with the Eagles- they only answer to Manwe.

Now, the Eagles basically couldn’t care less what happens to elves, men, dwarves, etc. The only reason they help anyone at all is because of Gandalf- maybe because he’s their friend, maybe because they know he’s a Maiar and thus they’re working for the same guy. Who knows? Otherwise they just mind their own business. If they got hold of the Ring, things could quickly go downhill. Even though they’re good, we all know what the Ring can do to people who wield it. An Eagle wielding the One Ring would most likely destroy the Children in the name of preserving nature. Again, who knows?

No, Eagles could not just fly to the Ring to Mt. Doom. They could not just fly somebody carrying the Ring to Mt. Doom. The quest succeeded by stealth alone, as has been pointed out a near infinite number of times now. A big freakin’ Eagle with a 30-ft. wing span is gonna look a little suspicious crossing Sauron’s airspace, dontcha think?

Anyway, let’s play along with this hypothesis for a second. Let’s say the Eagles were all good, and incorruptible, and they agreed to carry the Ring to the fire. This will take, what a few days? Great! The Ring will be destroyed in one quick, tidy step. Now everyone’s problems are over. Perfect. But it would make for some pretty fucking dismal entertainment reading, no?

Elrond: So, Gwaihir, back from Orodruin so soon?
Gwaihir: Yep.
Elrond: Destroyed the Ring then?
Gwaihir: Yep.
Elrond: Slammin’. Let’s go get a taco.

The whole point of the books is the quest- the various trials and tribulations the characters go through to complete their mission, and the invaluable life lessons they learn and changes they bring about. I mean, really- it’s just how the book is written. Why not ask why Gandalf didn’t just call down an airstrike at Helm’s Deep? Why not ask why Frodo didn’t just say “Fuck this!” and stay home? Tolkien’s whole point was that sometimes you just have to do things the hard way.

13

Two possibilities, but mainly, we don’t have a good idea of the layout. It’s not necessarily just a huge open volcano pit.

Possibility 1: The specific area (“cracks of doom”) seem to be inside some sort of cave, an enclosure, within the volcano mountain. It is not necessarily open at the top. So, it’s possible that merely flying over the top and dropping the ring wouldn’t get it into the lava… and even if it did fall into some lava, it might not be the specific spot where it was made, and thus might not be hot enough to destroy it.

Possibility 2: The opening atop the fire mountain may not be very big. The heat would be intense, so the eagle couldn’t just fly low over the lava – the heat would scorch its wings or burn it to fried chicken. If the eagle flies high enough to avoid the heat, you gotta have pretty exact aim – drop the ring, and a breeze (or the incredible updraft of heat from the lava) might push it slightly off, so that it would just plot on the rocks, not in the lava.

None of these, of course, are discussed by Tolkien nor any of the characters.

14

Heck, I serve Manwe all the time.

I mean, a sandwich is a sandwich, but a Manwe is a meal!

15

Hey, Bartman, long time no read!

Virgowitch, IIRC, the eagles of Manwe were not the same as the eagles of middle earth. The eagles of middle earth are basically cousins of the Ents. In other words, if the eagles are Maia, so are the Ents.

Dex, Please ban tracer immediately. Thanx!

16

No way.

17

It’s true that Sauron, Saurman, Gandalf and the Balrogs were maiar, but not eagles. The eagles have spirits similar to the maiar, but they came around after the elves.

Ditto much of the above. If the Eagles simply took the ring to Mordor, it wouldn’t make much of a story (or at all). It would also defeat the nature of spirits like theirs & the ents, to guard Middle-earth and not meddle in the affairs of the pesky men, elves, dwarves, etc. It was possible for the eagles to approach Mordor/Mt. Doom, however. Beyond saying that, I don’t want to give anything away.

If memory serves, Gwaihir was sent to Gandalf by Radagast the Brown who was the bird-tamer and Yavanna’s maiar. Apparently Radagast turned into a moth in the movie.

(If Elrond is going to say “slammin’”, that’d better be preceded with “Miiiiiiister Gwaihir…”)

18

:slight_smile: Virgowitch. I may steal this for a sig line sometime. [/hijack]

19

As mentioned way upthread, this was AFTER the ring was destroyed.