Early/Mid 80s Punk and Heavy Metal scene questions

Cafe Society
1

Same question as in the title…For those who traveled in either, or both scenes, what was the heavy metal (think Iron Maiden/Judas Priest/Metallica etc) and punk (X, Fear, etc) subcultures like? Was there any crossover between the two, or was there more of an antipathy between them?

Also, for those who were in the Heavy Metal scene from around '80-'84:

  1. How much did fantasy (IE Dungeons & Dragons) factor into the Heavy Metal subculture in this period?

  2. The Hippies had their sandals and kurtas; Disco had platforms and leisure suits…What was the attitude for a guy in the Metal scene circa 1980-1984?

  3. What did Iron Maiden/Metallica/Slayer, etc fans think of stuff such as Guns N’ Roses, Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, etc later in the decade?

  4. Did the scene dry up in the early 90s with Grunge? What were the views on Grunge?

For the early-mid 80s Punks here:

  1. Was the post 1980 Punk scene less political/socially oriented than the late 70s movement?

  2. Was there still a DIY aesthetic to the scene as there had been circa '76?

  3. What did a Punk guy or gal wear to show their Punk pride in the early and mid 80s?

  4. What did you guys think of Grunge when it came out? Was it the next step for Punk, or was it just classic rock with new clothes? When did you think of stuff such as Green Day which in the mid 90s was called the rebirth of Punk?

2

Do you get paid by the thread?

3

I don’t get paid at all. Unemployed and not happy about it.

4

I can answer the metal half of the questions, given that I did live through that period and was part of that culture.

There was a small amount of overlap, although metalheads tended to hate rap more than anything else. There was also a small amount of antipathy, but not a lot.

It seems obvious that fantasy was a big influence, and yet the vast majority of metal at the time didn’t have fantasy lyrics. There was Dio and a bit of Maiden, but lyrics about unicorns and dragons didn’t really get going until the 90s when metal went underground again.

Jean jackets, black T-shirts, jeans.

There was a lot of overlap between metal and hard rock fans, although different bands elicited different reactions.

Guns N’ Roses: most metal fans embraced them.
Bon Jovi: most metal fans hated them with a passion, although as the genre grew in popularity a lot of metal fans came around to many of the bands. Part of that was that your girl loved the hair bands so you ended up being exposed to it and eventually thinking it was pretty cool. Especially compared to rap.

The scene’s commercial peak ended with the advent of grunge. In the 90s, metalheads went one of four ways:

  1. They clung bitterly to their copies of Painkiller and Powerslave and in 2017 don’t own a single CD that has come out since 1990

  2. They became alternative fans because alternative tapped into the same pathos as heavy metal. Basically, those who were into metal because they were angry and felt like outcasts, for them grunge was like metal only even better. Those who were in it for the musicianship had little use for it though, although many who played music for a living did embrace it because they wanted to be “relevant”.

  3. They pouted for a few years until Hammerfall’s Glory for the Brave saved traditional metal in 1996, and since then it’s been happy days for metal fans interested in new music. And the market is now big enough that the classic bands can make money again too.

  4. They got married, had kids, and listen to Taylor Swift. Metal is nostalgia for them.

5

Some people liked it, some people didn’t.

People in all those scenes wore what they felt like wearing, just like they do now. Only posers were overly concerned with what other people were wearing, and posers were mostly shunned.

Some people liked it, some people didn’t. Astonishingly, people have unique tastes in music.

No, of course not. Do you actually follow music? Lots of metalheads liked Soundgarden and Mudhoney, but many didn’t.

No.

Yeah sure. I don’t know what you mean here. People played their instruments. Even Steve Jones, Glen Matlock and Paul Cook were more or less competent musicians.

Whatever they felt like wearing. I went to punk shows in collared shirts and jeans.

Some people liked it, some didn’t. Most of that rebirth of punk BS was a media creation. There were a lot of people who were annoyed at pop-punk because it got co-opted by Avril Lavigne and Miley Cyrus, but mostly people just listen to the music they like.

6

Look up and watch a series called The History of Heavy Metal. It’s good and answers all these questions.

7

Adaher, The metal scene is actually one of the few rock and roll scenes that’s thriving these days. I mostly listen to Doom metal and Prog metal. Check out Mastodon, The Sword, Clutch, High on Fire, The Obsessed, and that’s enough for right now. I mean, if you want to re-acquaint yourself with that kind of music. If you don’t of course that’s totally cool.

ETA: They have absorbed a lot from grunge and made it their own.

8

I am already in category #3, those who pouted until metal got good again. Don’t like doom, but prog’s all right and power metal is awesome.

9

If you accept answers for a slightly later era (86-90) :

1) How much did fantasy (IE Dungeons & Dragons) factor into the Heavy Metal subculture in this period?

It wasn’t really a main theme in my time although you could get an occasional mention. Common themes were horror, satanism, nuclear warfare and anything more or less creepy. There were however bands who already specialized in the fantasy aspect, like Helloween.

2) The Hippies had their sandals and kurtas; Disco had platforms and leisure suits…What was the attitude for a guy in the Metal scene circa 1980-1984?

Black jean or leather jacket with band patches, black t-shirt of your favourite band (worn over a black sweater in winter), jeans.

3) What did Iron Maiden/Metallica/Slayer, etc fans think of stuff such as Guns N’ Roses, Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, etc later in the decade?

I loved Guns N’ Roses. Although I identified them as “not metal”, they still earned my respect because of the strength of their first album and the aura of danger that surrounded them. The other bands… not so much. Bon Jovi had a special place because they’re the ones that made me realize that guitars were cool. It was slippery slope from there :D. I had stopped listening to their stuff by the time I moved on to metal, but I couldn’t really bring myself to despise them because they were my “gateway to the real stuff”.

4) Did the scene dry up in the early 90s with Grunge? What were the views on Grunge?

Not that I remember but I was clearly drifting away from it by 1991. Most of my friends were still listening to the same stuff.

For the early-mid 80s Punks here:

1) Was the post 1980 Punk scene less political/socially oriented than the late 70s movement?

I don’t think it was. The Exploited, a second wave punk band that I listened to quite a bit, had political lyrics and the 80s French punk rock scene was very political, too.

2) Was there still a DIY aesthetic to the scene as there had been circa '76?

In spirit, definitely but I think the scene had sort of professionalized, albeit perhaps unwillingly.

3) What did a Punk guy or gal wear to show their Punk pride in the early and mid 80s?

Well, you’ve just mentioned the DIY aesthetic… In my experience, punks were much more open to divergence when it came to clothing. You could absolutely wear a business suit and still be considered a punk if you had the right attitude. Metalheads looked much more alike.

4) What did you guys think of Grunge when it came out? Was it the next step for Punk, or was it just classic rock with new clothes? When did you think of stuff such as Green Day which in the mid 90s was called the rebirth of Punk?

I wasn’t impressed with Smells like Teen Spirit the first time I heard it, especially since the DJ had hyped it for what seems like minutes before playing it. I liked it better the second time around and I ultimately became a moderate Nirvana fan. I was not keen on the other bands that appeared at the time like Pearl Jam. I mean, I thought it was cool that distorted guitars were popular again - I had spent the late 80 seen as a weirdo - but I can’t say that I really ever loved grunge. As I said earlier, I moved on to others things : Cold Wave > 60s and 70s rock > Jazz > Classical.

I listened to both metal and punk rock at the time. Historically, there had been (and still remained) a bit of distrust between the two scenes but by the late 80s, it was acceptable to like both. Bands like D.R.I. had helped cross the divide that may have once existed.

10

D&D itself was probably not much of a factor.

The early '80s were when D&D first made a big splash, and when non-gamers became aware of it. While there was some hysteria in the media around the game (a number of people – mostly credulous parents and conservative Christians – believed that the game was tied into Satanism), and while some D&D players were also fans of heavy metal, the players of the game were largely seen as nerds. If you’ve watched “Stranger Things” – those kids are exactly what the typical D&D players were like back then.

I don’t remember any metal bands of any note in that era who made any overt references to D&D or gaming themes. As others have noted, there were some acts (like Dio) who incorporated fantasy more generally (and, before that era, Led Zeppelin did the same), but it didn’t strike me (I was on the fringes of the scene) as being one of the major themes.

Side note: in the late 1980s and 1990s, the predecessor band to Queens of the Stone Age was called Kyuss (originally Sons of Kyuss), a name which they took directly from a monster in the AD&D Fiend Folio book. :slight_smile:

11
  1. How much did fantasy (IE Dungeons & Dragons) factor into the Heavy Metal subculture in this period?

Somewhat in the lyrics but that is as far as it went. Only geeks and some of the very early techno (think Kraftwerk) losers actually got into that stuff.

  1. The Hippies had their sandals and kurtas; Disco had platforms and leisure suits…What was the attitude for a guy in the Metal scene circa 1980-1984?

Jeans and black shirts and some leather among the more employed followers and the bikers who crossed over for the music. Especially among the holdovers from the Steppenwolf/others from the 60s/70s scene.

  1. What did Iron Maiden/Metallica/Slayer, etc fans think of stuff such as Guns N’ Roses, Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, etc later in the decade?

Around here the hair-metal was a very different scene.

  1. Did the scene dry up in the early 90s with Grunge? What were the views on Grunge?

Some lasted and adapted and you saw more of a blend of metal and punk ala the Meatmen. Some headed other directions. As for myself I went more towards the death-metal and comedy acts with great music like GWAR.

12

I wish music wasn’t so fragmented today. With it being so fragmented, there’s no real subcultures anymore. The last subculture I remember, or that I experienced (but wasn’t a part of) in my lifetime was the “Emo” subculture, with the whole look, trip pants, and music. I was born too late.

I ask about the metal scene because my brother-in-law and mentor was a Metalhead/D&D guy in the 80s and 90s but I was wondering how common he was for his era. He was born in 1969. Loves Iron Maiden, Slayer, Rush, Warhammer 40k, anything like that. Even at 47 the man grows his hair long every year.

13

I’m 50 this year and I was an avid AD&D/metalhead/punk at the time. I leaned more toward punk as far as appearance but I still had a pretty decent collection of 3/4 sleeve concert shirts. But I was also wearing doeskins and plaid shirts long before grunge. Having two 20 something sons has helped my musical interests remain current.

14

Discussions about music belong in Cafe Society. Off we go!

15

Shouldn’t it be a more Gleason-esque “And away we go”? Or Lawrence Welk handing it off to Cissy and Bobby? :slight_smile:

16

I was a hippie. What’s a kurta?

17

D&D Tolkien Ancient History WWII Art etc.
Tons of lyrical inspirations, not all of these guys were dummies who got their lyrics from the top end of a bong. I’d say most were not.

Same as the 70’s denim, leather, old t-shirts etc.
If it looked like you robbed the harley davidson wardrobe department, and a gay leather store, you were good.

Motley Crue is earlier in the decade, Too fast for love released 1981
Iron Maiden released Iron Maiden in 1980
Metallica would not release Kill em All until 1983
Slayer just barely squeaks in with a december 1984 release of Show no Mercy

So Maiden and the Crue are here 1st actually.
And the bands are different
Crue is glam/shock heavy metal with a side of bubblegum
Iron Maiden is more of an old school hard rock hedging into metal
Metallica is Speed/Thrash metal with a melodic side

What did fans think of them? youd get 2 billion different answers
But look in the cassette tape case of most fans and youd probably find something from all of the above.

The commercial scene, yea kind of, though the record labels did try to pass off some bands as grunge who were not and were still metal bands, ie Alice in Chains.

You still had bands like the established ones, metallica, megadeth, slayer, anthrax, and bands like pantera, but the variety of commercially available selections did go down.

I can tell you what Wendy didn’t wear

18

Its a one piece dress thing for girls

19

Music genres and their offshoots:

http://everynoise.com/engenremap.html

20

I didn’t go to shows (I was a youngish teenager at the time), but I listened to the Dead Kennedys a lot around 1984-1986. They were big and almost 100% political in their content.

Also, one of the major punk bands of the 70s and 80s, the Ramones, was about 0% political.

So I’m not sure if there really was a shift of that nature, either towards or away from the political.