I are curious. If a fielder commits an error allowing a batter to reach base and he eventually scores, it is considered an unearned run, right? What if the fielder in question is a pitcher? For example, a batter lines one back to the mound, the pitcher sails one past the first baseman and the batter winds up at second. The play is scored E-1. The baserunner scores when the next batter hits one into the gap. Is it an earned run? It is, after all, the pitcher’s error.
Oh, and in case you missed it: Tigers 6, Yankees 3. We’re on a roll!
10.18(e) of the Major League Baseball rules states “An error by a pitcher is treated exactly the same as an error by any other fielder in computing earned runs.”
Now that that’s settled, I’ve got another baseball rule question.
I’ve seen players running from first base, miss the touch at second, slid into third and called safe, only to have the third baseman throw the ball to second, and the second base umpire call them out.
My question is: Why wasn’t the runner called out as soon as he touched third base? The rules do say he must touch all the bases, don’t they? Aren’t the bases called 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for a reason? I always thought that that was the order in which you must run the bases. Or, do the rules neglect to mention that they must be in consecutive order? What if the second baseman didn’t notice he missed the base and failed to ask the third baseman to throw the ball, would the runner still be safe, even thou the umpire knows he missed the plate?
If you think that question sucked, you’re really gonna hate my boxing question.
Regarding the runner who misses second and is tagged out at third, the answer, I think, is a matter of jurisdiction. The 3rd base umpire is unlikely to have had the best view of what happened at second base. Even if he did see it, he’s unlikely to rule on a play at 2nd base unless asked to help by the 2nd base umpire.
I’ve seen players running from first base, miss the touch at second, slid into third and called safe, only
to have the third baseman throw the ball to second, and the second base umpire call them out.
My question is: Why wasn’t the runner called out as soon as he touched third base?
You have wandered into the realm of the appeal play. You most probably have seen it when a batter tries to hold up his swing on a pitch the home ump calls a ball. The catcher or pitcher (actually any player can make this play) appeals to the base umpire facing the batter. This ump then makes his ball/strike call. Seems weird, doesn’t it? The home ump says one thing, the base ump with a better view can make an overriding call, but he can do so only if appealed to.
You describe a similar situation. If, after the play at 3rd, and before a pitch is made to the next batter (this is vital), an appeal is made, then the batter can be ruled out.
Rule 7.10 in particular and several other sections of the rulebook deal with appealing plays. They don’t delve unto why but in reading the rules two things come to mind. First, in many (but not all) cases a player has the chance to undo the action that could be appealed. Second, there appears to be the attitude in the rules that a team has to pay attention to what the other team is doing.
A good example of this is when a player tries to score and the catcher misses the tag and the runner fails to touch the plate. What does the umpire call? Nothing. If one of the players realizes the situation, he has a chance to rectify it befoire the next pitch. However if the fielding team doesn’t appeal (or tag the runner) before the next pitch, the run counts. Why? I’m not sure but this seems to be in “the tie goes to the runner” spirit that prevades the rulebook.
Not so any more. It was realized that if the umpire made no call, the defending team would realize the batter missed the plate. So umpires will now call the batter safe and leave it up to the teams to realize what really happened. (You’ll sometimes see a catcher tag a runner after he has crossed the plate on a close play just in case he missed the plate.)
When you miss a base, you’re not out unless the other team notices and throws to the base. I think they need to do it before another pitch is thrown to the batter. However, the idea was that the team in the field had to notice what happened and call for the ball; the umpire would not help anyone by saying anything about it. (That worked fine when you missed 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, but did cause problems at home plate as I mentioned.)
Huemr, the situation you described doesn’t work. In order for the runner at third to be called out, he would have to be tagged as it wasn’t a forced play, even if he already was at third base. He would have to touch third base, then go back to second to touch that.
Or if they appealed the play as outlined above, then that would work.
Oblong is right. On an appeal play, the fielding team has to take the action that would have caused the out in the first place, e.g., if the runner missed first on a force play, you throw the ball to second. On a non-force play, you tag the lil’ bastard out as he/she stands with a false sense of security at third. Muahahahaha.
As much as I would normally hate to resurect this old of a thread especially since this is off the original topic anyways, but special circumstances intervened. Namely I WAS PROVEN RIGHT RECENTLY!!! Not that I’m trying to brag or anything.
RealityChuck
Did you see Tuesdays, Kansas City Royals-Cleveland Indians game? Omar Vizquel tries to score on a sacrifice fly and the catcher drops the ball. Vizquel though he tagged the plate but he was actually nabbed on another obscure rule, but for my immediate point, the Umpire (Rick Reed) made no call and the KC bench went berzerk trying to get Greg Zahn’s attention to tag out Vizquel, which he did. The announcers questioned both the call itself and why Reed didn’t make a call, but as it turns out, Reed was right in both cases. The official reason for him not making the call was that’s what the rules said. The runner isn’t called safe until he touches the plate (if the next play is made without the other team tagging the runner or appealing the play, then the run automatically counts).
As for why Vizquel was out in the first place when the replay clearly shows that he reached out and touched the black part of the plate and Rick Reed was right on top of the play. The plate is only the white pare, the black border is to help the players and umpires see the plate and isn’t part of it. Earl Weaver, in his auotbiography, said he decided to learn the rulebook because he got nailed on the black boarder rap once and decide he would never again let an umpire be right if he was going to argue the rules.
If the runner misses home and returns to his dugout, the defense can appeal that play by merely stepping on home plate with the ball, provided that a pitch hasn’t been thrown to the next batter.
The catcher doesn’t have to go and chase the runner all over the place to get an out in that situation.
If the runner is still in the vicinity of home, however, you have to tag the guy.
In high school baseball, there are no appeal plays. The umpires just call you out when they see the problem.
However, appeal plays are effective only if it is the very next play.
A runner missed third base scoring a run. Another runner wound up at third in the same play. It was two outs. As the pitcher made the throw to third base to appeal, the runner now on third broke for home. The third baseman caught the ball without touching the base and immediately threw home. The catcher tagged the runner out. Before the first pitch in the next inning, the umpire went to the official scorers and ruled that the previous runner scored.
RealityChuck, I don’t think you’re correct in your assertion that an umpire will call a runner safe if the runner missed the plate AND the tag was missed. A few mights ago the play occurred on TV; the umpire made no call, which is the appropriate call. It happens all the time, and I’ve never seen an umpire call such a runner safe.
The safe call means the runner touched the plate. If an umpire calls a runner safe when the runner doesn’t touch the plate, the umpire’s call is wrong - there should be no call until the play is concluded. I’ve never heard of any direction to the contrary at the MLB level, and we still instruct Little League umpires to make no call until the play is resolved.
The umpire will make no call if the runner fails to touch home. However, it is then the responsibility of the defense to make an appeal of some kind (or tag the runner if he is still hanging around.) If the defense fails to recognize the situation and proceeds to pitch to the next batter, they’re SOL. The run counts as the runner is now considered to be safe. It’s a similar situation to a runner missing any of the other three bases and no one making an appeal. The home plate umpire isn’t going to tell anyone what happened unless he is asked.
If the run is put on the board and no one appeals properly, there is no provision to take the run away. It’s not like basketball’s “correctable errors” or the instant replay situations of hockey and football.
As a collegiate women’s fast pitch umpire, I can tell you a few things that I do know. First of all, an appeal is supposed to be made to the umpire that missed the call. On a check swing, you have to appeal to the plate umpire, then HE will go for help to the base umpire. Under NCAA rules he has to honor the appeal and go for help.
As far as missed bases are concerned, home plate is handled the same way. Since it’s an appeal play, if the runner passes the base (or plate) she is considered to have touched it until an appeal is made.
BobT is correct about Federation Rules (High School), if a runner misses a base in a highschool game, they’re called out at the time of the infraction.
A good place for rules questions and interpretations is the newsgroup: rec.sport.officiating
I think you guys just make this stuff up so’s you’ll have somethin’ to talk about.
Lord know’s there ain’t nuthin’ happening in the actual game.
Peace,
mangeorge (Ho Hum)
