Easy Answers for Fictional Dilemmas

[MrDibble]

@DocCathode

should anybody wish to skip over them

Definitely did that…

@DocCathode

Even if I had good search engine skills, various websites will quote only the parts that they feel back up their view.

Maybe don’t harp on what’s canon unless you have access to the canon to back your self up, then.

@DocCathode

Again “You should go perform this very dangerous mission because I said so” is not going to work.

Because you’re an expert on magical Great Eagle psychology? Although “because i said so” is your own strawman version of what I’m saying.

Tolkien makes it clear the Eagles can’t be commanded. But he also makes it clear they can be asked.

@DocCathode

The eagles would ask details and reasons before agreeing to anything.

I don’t remember them needing a lot of details or reasons in The Hobbit…they explain what risks they will and won’t take, and where they’ll go, but the actual mission the Dwarves are on doesn’t seem to come up.

@DocCathode

Again, for the reasons listed above, I can’t point to a single passage about anything.

But you’ll base a whole case around what you can’t cite?

@DocCathode

Again, why would the eagles agree?

Because they are agents of Good, and some of the Wise would be the ones asking them.

@DocCathode

The explanation you offered makes no sense.

What’s nonsensical about a Special Ops mission?

@DocCathode

He’s there for “sneaky work”?

Like a bit of reverse Burgling, yes.

@DocCathode

So the eagles should fly into Mordor, immediately drawing Sauron’s attention?

I should think they should do it as quietly as they can, instead. Fly at night, fly high, fly fast. Come in on a roundabout route.

@DocCathode

None of the eagles would point that out or just say “If he is so sneaky, let him sneak there on his own?”

“Speed is of the essence”…

@DrDeth

But that was in the Hobbit, where The Ring wasnt the One Ring yet.

Yeah, already covered this non-argument in a couple of previous posts, thanks.

@DrDeth

Boromir was corrupted in the books also

Boromir was with the Ringbearer for months. Boromir thought he had a pressing need for the Ring. Boromir knew exactly where the Ring was, and had laid eyes on it already.

@DrDeth

still both Gandalf and Galadriel refused to touch the Ring.

I didn’t say the book Ring wasn’t corrupting.

But it’s also not whispering “Ash Nazg !” in people’s heads like some slasher film baddie. That’s entirely Jackson, Walsh and Boyens.

@DrDeth

Right.

Also answered already.

@DrDeth

Not in LotR.

The events of The Hobbit canonically happened in the LOTR. It’s silly to pretend they didn’t. I mean, are you happy to say the Battle of Five Armies happened, and the barrel ride, and the spiders … but not the Eagle rescue? Just because it serves your argument, and no other reason?

@DrDeth

That was in the Hobbit, and again for a short flight.

So this will be a longer flight - so?

@DrDeth

They’d still have to drop him in,

No-one’s suggesting they Stuka him into the volcano.

and be confronted by the nazgul, the Eye & Will of Sauron and 10000 orc archers.

At the Mountain itself? Didn’t seem to have any guards at all. Two hobbits and a Gollum waltzed right in, after all.

[Chronos]

[Moderating]
This is getting a bit confrontational for CS. Please cool it.

[Melbourne]

@DrDeth

But sure, say the Eagles wouldnt be corrupted by carrying Frodo to Mt Doom, They’d still have to drop him in, and be confronted by the nazgul, the Eye & Will of Sauron and 10000 orc archers.

But just accelerate to light speed, then kamikazi into Mt Doom.

[puzzlegal]

@MrDibble

But that’s all meta

So, the real reason the eagles didn’t carry the ring bearer is meta: that’s not the story Tolkien wanted to tell. And maybe it didn’t even occur to him, but the first reason is good enough.

But do you have a hypothesis for the in-story reason the eagles didn’t help out?

[Der_Trihs]

@puzzlegal

But do you have a hypothesis for the in-story reason the eagles didn’t help out?

They weren’t asked, and if they had been as soon as one got close enough to Mount Doom it would have killed Frodo and taken the Ring for itself.

[Andy_L]

@MrDibble

“There’s a motherfucking war on, Mr Big Bird” would do (but in the most flowery Sindarin, of course). I mean, that’s why they came to the Lonely Mountain, and the Black Gate…

“There’s people who need rescuing” or “The elves and dwarves are battling your ancient enemies” are pretty straightforward reasons for Eagles to wish to help. “Fly these two little guys to the center of Sauron’s power” is more of a stretch. Maybe Gandalf is working for Sauron, and this request to go to Mordor is a trap. And two hobbits sneaking into Mordor is a lot stealthier than Eagles flying there - Sauron is expecting a military attack at some point from Gondor (and perhaps from the Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien), so something that looks like an aerial attack is bound to get his attention. It’s a foolish play, and the Eagles would recognize it as such.

As far as being corrupted by the Ring, there are different kinds of corruption. It’s apparently a very attractive object even to people who know nothing of its power - and we see no one at all in Middle-Earth who is able to deliberately take action they know will destroy it. Galadriel and Faramir turned it down, and Bilbo (with much struggle) passed it on to his favorite person in the world, but no one (not even Frodo) could make themselves destroy it (Gandalf threw it into a fireplace - but he knew that wouldn’t damage it). An Eagle could carry the Ring (in Bilbo’s hands) - but to carry it to be destroyed, even if not knowing what it was? They’d decide that it’s too (what’s the word - ah) precious for such treatment

[Dr.Strangelove]

You know, we’ve been talking about “what’s another way to throw the One Ring into Mount Doom?” But why not the opposite question: “what could One Ring have done to make it impossible to lose?”

We know the One Ring can change size. Are there any natural limits? Can it just grow to be 100 meters across, far too large to move, and then just have some minion of Sauron stop by to pick it up? Even when just sitting in Bilbo’s house, it could have broken out of the hill by expanding.

Or, if that’s unreasonable, it can just shrink itself to snip the chain that it’s being held on. Or even make itself tiny enough to slip between the threads in the jacket pocket.

Even if we limit to the range between a hobbit’s finger and Sauron’s finger, there are also questions about how fast it could grow. Imagine that it can expand at a relativistic velocity. The thermal pulse that it would impose on the surrounding air would expand like a small nuclear bomb. It would kill anyone near by and be an unmistakable signal for Sauron.

[Der_Trihs]

I suspect it isn’t smart enough for that kind of thing, or it’d do something like coerce its wearer into walking towards Sauron by crushing their finger if they go any other direction.

[echoreply]

@puzzlegal

So, the real reason the eagles didn’t carry the ring bearer is meta: that’s not the story Tolkien wanted to tell. And maybe it didn’t even occur to him, but the first reason is good enough.

That’s always the reason, but it isn’t any fun to talk about!

I know lots of people here go to writing workshops and such, are there seminars on explaining plot points without resorting to awkward info dumps?

@puzzlegal

But do you have a hypothesis for the in-story reason the eagles didn’t help out

The theory I like is that Gandalf never bothers to ask the eagles because one of the main points of the Fellowship is stealth. Hobbits riding giant eagles would attract the eye, and would probably have let the Ring Wraiths find them again after Rivendell.

[Dr.Strangelove]

If it’s dumb enough, then we can use the One Ring to build a vehicle and simply drive it to Mount Doom. Get some (severed and preserved) large and small fingers. Bring them near the One Ring in oscillating fashion so that it expands and contracts as it tries to match the finger size. But you mount the One Ring such that it pushes on a lever, driving a crankshaft and thus the wheels of the vehicle. It would put a lot of force on the lever but a small amount of mithril would be sufficient to transmit the force to a larger framework of steel.

[DrDeth]

@MrDibble

At the Mountain itself? Didn’t seem to have any guards at all. Two hobbits and a Gollum waltzed right in, after all.

Due to stealth. Frodo and Sam ran into armies of them on the way.

[Robot_Arm]

@burpo_the_wonder_mutt

There’s always one easy answer: Nuke it from orbit.

“Some lunatic is holding two boatloads of people hostage and demanding one kills the other.”

“Nuke it from orbit.”

“Some old guy has busted his glasses and can’t find replacements.”

“Nuke it from orbit.”

See how E-Z it is? Works every time! It’s the only way to be sure.

At the end of Dark Star, one of their sentient orbital nukes gets an erroneous command to begin its detonation countdown, but the release mechanism is jammed.

What you gonna do now, smart guy?

[Robot_Arm]

@Johnny_Q

Aside from Snidely whiplash going around tying people to train tracks, do you realize how many transit officials and engineers(both technical and railroad) had to fuck up to set up this scenario?
and what about you? are you a qualified switchman or just some Joe coming across the scenario?

It occurs to me that I could move the switch lever halfway, creating a situation where the trolley won’t continue on either track, but will derail and stop before hitting anybody.

[terentii]

@Kent_Clark

Long before Austin Powers I came up with the simple question that spoiled a host of crime stories, spy novels, and, of course, the entire James Bond franchise.

Why don’t you just kill him?

The Mafia’s solution to any problem!

[DrDeth]

@Robot_Arm

What you gonna do now, smart guy?

Try Phenomenology of course.

No doubt, hands down, Dark Star is the best SF film ever made if you consider cost of film vs quality. A mere $60000. Not even the food budget for most bigger films.

[Johnny_Q]

How many people are on the trolley?

[Peter_Morris]

In Live And Let Die (movie version), they tried to just take Bond to a back alley and shoot him. Didn’t work out too well for them.

[terentii]

Look, I’ve got a gun in my room. I’ll go get it and we can shoot him together!

[Robot_Arm]

@Johnny_Q

How many people are on the trolley?

I don’t know. Even if it’s full, a derailing trolley isn’t guaranteed to kill, or even hurt, the passengers. Might still be a better choice than letting it roll over people on the tracks.

[burpo_the_wonder_mutt]

You mean I have to nuke the nuke in orbit from orbit?

I love this plan! I’m excited to be a part of it! LET’S DO IT!