Ebay and Ebay fink, I pit thee. And thine.

The BBQ Pit
101

Tell me about it.

Obviously the OP overestimates his own abilities. But he also underestimates those of us who have actually dabbled in (dare I say?) real art. He questioned pulykamell, somehow assuming at first the he (pulykamell) didn’t know what he was talking about. I’m guessing that he thought some of the rest of us artist-types are full of hot air as well. But no, that’s not necessarily so. We’ve just had more exposure to various kinds of art, some of us have had extensive formal training or have practiced and worked very hard, and actually have a clue about how challenging the whole process can be. Being able to run Photoshop and understanding how to copy and paste and use the clone tool does not automatically make one an artist.

I suppose I sound kind of harsh, but I have to confess I’m getting sick of hearing the bragging of an inflated, deluded ego. It’s gotten so that I am starting to get cynical when I hear someone say that they’re this great artist. I’ve heard too many people make that claim and but then they end up being a let-down, like the OP. I am sick of it. I suppose a certain amount of enthusiasm and a touch of delusion are typical (what some call delusion is another’s “hope”) but there’s a limit. Too much delusion is not healthy.

Another thing: it amuses me when people equate how long it takes to complete an art project with its merit or worth. (As the OP has done on this thread.) Sometimes, taking forever on something shows less skill, not more, because it indicates that the artist couldn’t get it right and didn’t know what they were doing. (Obviously, a lot of artwork is very detail intensive and yes, it does take a long time and rightfully so. Also, some excellent artists works slower and yet produce fabulous work.) Still, sometimes I’ll hear, “Do you know how long it took me to do this?” As if that makes it a worthwhile piece. Sorry, if it’s pitiful, it’s pitiful.

By the way, where is our esteemed OP, anyway? Surely he would not bail out on this thread now! He has been so prolific with his posts up until recently and has had so much to say!

102

First of all, I don’t think I’ve stolen anything from you, and I don’t think I’ve taken anything of value from anyone else. You make it sound like I’m busting into your house and taking your tv set. In the case of using Britney and Christina images that have been printed in hundreds of thousands of magazines and are on about as many websites, it’s more like, I’m walking down a country lane by an apple orchard. A lot of apples have fallen from the trees and lie rotting on the ground. I pick up a couple and eat 'em. Yeah, I’ve “stolen” the farmers apples. Probably did him INCALCULABLE harm in the process. :rolleyes: Meanwhile, I got to eat an apple. I’d gladly have given the farmer a quarter or whatever for the apples if he’d left a box out by the road or something, but it’s a mile-long hike to his house. So, big deal.

Second of all, I’m not advocating NO copyright laws. Got that? Cause it doesn’t sound like you do. I’m advocating BETTER copyright laws, ones that don’t just work for cultural lotto winners and the big orgs that represent them.

Are you personally having a massive problem with ripoffs? I suspect not. The people who get ripped off are the people who take pics of something or someone really, really popular – Christina or Britney or whoever the flava of the moment is. Basically, our copyright law does the minimum that any copyright law should do – it provides legal recourse for massive ripoffs, but it does very little beyond that, but what it DOES do is massively repress freedom of expression for those whose chosen art form is photomanips.

I think photomanipping is just another art form, like any other, and it would be nice if we could have an objective discussion about how to make it possible to express themselves in this way as freely as possible without infringing on the rights of others, but from the tone of this thread I can see THAT’S not gonna happen anytime soon.

I’m ahead of the curve for many Dopers on this topic, just like a lot of the folks on SDMB are ahead of the curve of Americans in general on the topic of gay marriage. At some point, you, or more likely your kids, will catch up.

103

Sure, you can bitch. I have already explained that that’s what my initial post was all about. You just can’t expect anyone to agree with you. And I didn’t.

104

Do a search on “Hands-on Imperative.”

105

Sorry if you think liking your own stuff constitutes arrogance. It sounds kinda like you’ve got that passive-aggressive thing going that a lot of artists and writers have, where they can’t praise their art themselves and so must constantly seek validation by others and in the process attack anyone else who does get validation. Not a rare phenom, but it would be better for you if you grew out of it.

I’ve looked at your art and you do have fine technical skill. You should try selling your stuff instead of just pissing on the work of others who do so.

That was me. I prefer to think of them as freehand artwork that expresses the pleasure of drawing. And of course – some of them have sold.

106

[QUOTE=RobuSensei]
Spectacularly wrong.[/qoute]

I read your source at length, thanks, it was excellent. Perhaps if you had done so you would have noted that it generally supported my contentions: fans CAN and DO make their own art – even pornographic art – in Japan, based on their popular series – for the most part without legal repercussions. The major exceptions are a couple of big corps that do a lot of U.S. biz like Nintendo.

The thing I got wrong is that Japanese companies are smarter than their trademark laws and allow thier fans to be creative instead of oppressing them as their copyright law allows.

So now I would say, let’s make a copyright law that would permit American fandom to grow and be creative in the same way Japanese fandom has. The Japanese companies recognize the benefits of having a fandom that’s hugely involved in their work through their own creative efforts and even makes money doing it – what the hell is wrong with that? It’s a good thing! Let a thousand flowers bloom in the U.S. as well as Japan.

Exactly. They’re not stupid like U.S. firms who take a restrictive view on copyright – and thier supporters. That’s part of why anime and manga are eating American corps’ lunches.

So, some Japanese corps are stupid. Probably they’ve been corrupted by contact with repressive U.S. attitudes.

From my POV that’s just a nitpick.

107

It means a lot to ME. That’s REAL MONEY they’re spending.

108

Another one for the peanut gallery.

109

Seven posts in a row? Ever get the feeling you might be talking to yourself? Oh wait, fuck it…i’m here…doh!

110

I just have been a bit busy for the last day or so, so I didn’t have the time to respond to the various posts as they came up, so I’m batch-processing them, as it were.

And as you point out, I’m here. But not for long, duty calls. The Real World can be such a bitch.

111

This is an easy one. Expressing yourself without infringing on others is possible by either using your own base image or by using a copyright free image.

Besides, it’s not the expressing yourself that’s an issue. You can make your lil’ pictures to your heart’s content. Nothing wrong in messing around in photoshop at all. What’s wrong is that you are making a profit off of someone else’s hard work. That and the fact that I can almost guarantee you that if you are indeed using photoshop, that your copy is probably a copy and not the real thing. That, however, is just a guess on my part.

So tell us, Sparky, how old are you?
When you print up the pics does the light in your mom’s basement do them any justice?

112

You’re funny. But no. I get plenty of “validation” by keeping busy. You have no idea what kind of work I do, what kind of projects I’m currently working on. I’ve been getting validation out of the wazoo, actually.

Not to say I’m not neurotic, 'cause I am, just as most artists are. But I have a pretty healthy self-esteem about my art. However, I’m also realistic. A lot of my artwork falls short. I’d love it if I were as good as Michael Whelan, for instance, but I’m not. But I do some nice portraits and figure drawings. The made-up figures? Sometimes marginal, but I remember when I couldn’t draw figures at all, so whatever skill I have in that area is hard-earned and I’m not that ashamed of it.

This is really funny. No, I got over that when I was 15. I’m no longer in high school. I don’t need to tear others down in order to feel better about myself. (And where is this “validation” that you’re getting, anyway? Surely not on this thread!)

In fact, the reason that I was anticipating that your artwork would be so fabulous (based on your description) was that I was looking forward to the treat of seeing some really good artwork. I enjoy seeing great artwork. I like to be able to praise someone else’s hard work. I wanted to praise your work, but dude. You let me down. Big time.

I showed some examples of my work because you wanted me to “put my money where my mouth was.” You asked me to show it. I suppose you assumed that I couldn’t, or wouldn’t. But I did. I said I could have drawn from life or from my imagination the kind of pose that you did (instead of ripping off someone else’s photos) and yeah. I think I proved that I can. And yeah, from what I can see of your work, it appears that I could do a substantial bit better than you have. And I’m by far not the only one who could. Of course, if this assessment of my own skills or abilities is too inflated, I’m sure someone on this thread will correct me and tell me that I’m deluded.

On the contrary, Mr. Deluded, I think I have a more realistic idea of where I am at. I’m good at some things—in a few areas, damned good. But I don’t pretend that I’m so utterly fabulous. I’ve seen utterly fabulous. I ain’t it. Few are. But I have my moments, though.

And of course, I suppose I must be honest and admit that since we are all unique, we all have our own special fabulousness (if we only work at it). So, yeah, in that respect, I am fabulous. And you are fabulous as well, I am sure (though so far I’ve not seen any examples of it). When we brush up those skills, more and more of our stuff will be uniquely fabulous. That’s true for everybody.

Thank you.

Once again, you’re funny. You automatically assume that I haven’t sold anything.

I started selling my work when I was age 17 and have steadily sold it since. Not raking in the big bucks, but respectable at times. I’ve been in some high-falutin’ galleries in LA, even been in the Ansel Adams Gallery at Yosemite (my most proud moment). Art shows, awards, you know. That kind of stuff. Not that I couldn’t do much more, but I am not too terribly ashamed of my record.

“Pissing on someone else’s work”? Honey, this is the real world. We are judged. I’ve had my work judged quite harshly (some art teachers can be tough). I’ve also lived in delusion and had that delusion crushed. It’s painful. But it’s part of the process. When you show your work to the world and especially when you brag about it in the way that you have, you are opening yourself to honest feedback.

I’m not saying that you nave no potential or ability; I am not calling your work “shit.” I just think that there’s a massive disconnect between what you really can do and what you think you can do. It’s great to have self-confidence, but if you have too much, it prevents you from growing. And since you put yourself out there (brave soul that you are) and started this thread, I figure that you’re strong enough to hear some rather brutally honest feedback.

Ah, well, at least you can do something other than copy and paste photographs. Actually, I should be more gracious than that. It’s good that you draw and you do have some ability. However, your rendering looks a little “newbie” and your anatomy is lacking. Some more Life Drawing (if you’ve already taken it) would be most helpful. Also, Burne Hogarth’s books are very good, as are George Bridgman, (though both those fellows are a little too dynamic—but I studied under Hogarth and I loved him), and hm…who else? Oh yeah. Louise Gordon. She’s awesome.

Yeah, I’m sure you have. I’ve seen some really mediocre work sell, and after all, you do have a rather “fringe” audience so perhaps the competition is a little more slim.

113

And tell us about the lambs, Clarisse, can you still hear them screaming?

Sheesh, I’m glad the attacks aren’t getting personal.

This thread is getting close to the GD thread Grey Tuesday: The Grey Album, Sampling, Mixing, and the Law in regards to copyrighted works that are getting sampled. At least, dalovindj put forth the thought of compensating the copyright holder for sampling their product where in this thread you equivocate it to stealing an apple. If the copyright holder doesn’t want you touching their stuff, don’t. Why is that so fucking hard to understand? Not yours, don’t touch. Catfish?!

114

Your original post to which I was responding seemed to indicate that you believed that Japanese copyright law allows this. To wit:

Also, if you had read my source at length, you would have noticed that even though the Japanese publishing companies often don’t choose to take legal action against doujinshi, it’s still illegal. Furthermore, doujinshi is fan art, which would be the equivalent of you making your own sketches rather than using real photos as a basis. My source calls that “borderline illegal.” What you’re doing would be the equivalent of taking the original anime/manga artwork and using it as you see fit, which is definitely illegal.

Hmm. You seem to have taken a bit of my previous post out of context. How very…appropriate. Let’s take a look at the whole paragraph, shall we?

Do you see the difference between what doujinshi artists do and what you did? They use other’s characters, but not their artwork; their product is made with their own artwork and story.

To put it another way, if you were to take random pages and panels from a well-known manga, and pasted it all together in a way that leaves many continuity holes, random plot errors, and the occasional out-and-out inexplicable mistake, and then represent it as a) your own creation, and b) high art, you’d be laughed out of Komiketto.

Yes, those smart Japanese publishing companies cruise the annual Comic Market conventions looking for new talent. But they’re also looking for things that they might have to shut down, as well.

However, I should point out that you can’t really compare what you’re doing with doujinshi artists, in that they’re creating original work based on fictional characters. You, on the other hand, are just photoshopping photos that others made of real people, who may not approve of what you’ve done with their likeness.

Oh, by the way, perhaps I’ve lived here too long, but I wasn’t aware that anime and manga were “eating American corps’ lunches.” Are DC, Marvel, et. al. being run out of business? Cartoon Network showing anime 24/7?

On a side note, relegating people to your own designated “peanut gallery” doesn’t help your cause any. If your work can’t stand on its own without myriad explanations of how inconsistencies and errors aren’t really inconsistencies and errors – lighting? wind? a freaking right hand on a left arm?!

I’m going to have to concur with a number of posters here in saying that this “slavegirls” picture is shit.

115

THanks for the search term, Evil. I was aware of the principles but didn’t realize it was a fully delineated idea. I agree with the necessity for free dissemination of information. However, I’m not sure what it has to do with the issue at hand. I found nothing approving of stealing other people’s artwork for profit in any of the manifestos I read.

Here’s a hypothetical scenario. Your work is selling like hotcakes online for a while, but suddenly your sales drop off. You do a little searching and find 4 other sites selling pictures based on your work. They’ve each redone it a bit; changed the background to blue, fixed those pesky highlights, given Christina new windblown hair, things like that. All in all they’ve each put, say, 45 minutes worth of effort into it. Now they’re selling it as their own and cutting heavily into your profits. People stop buying your stuff because “eh, it looks like everything else out there.” We are to assume you’d be ok with this? And that everyone else should be too?

And thank you for the clarifications on Japanese copyright law, RobuSensei. It sounds like EvilCaptor would get shut down there too, despite his assertions to the contrary.
I’m a little surprised the mods have left this thread open. Post about downloading music illegally and the thread is closed practically before it’s submitted. Post about using photos illegally and it garners 3 pages. What’s the difference?

116

I’m not a mod, and this is only my opinion, but I’d say there are a couple of differences. First, a thread about downloading music would likely include discussion of software and techniques used to make it possible. Second, downloading music involves copying the music in its entirety, not snippets of this song and that, cobbled together, flipped and reversed. :smiley:

117

Took quite a few words to get there, though. Well, I’m happy for your success, it’s always nice to see hard work rewarded. I still do not agree with you however. I’ll keep an eye out for those books – I’m not at all averse to touching up my technique. I hope you will forgive me if I do not share your opinion on the whole me=good, you=bad thing.

118

Point taken. I probably shouldn’t have brought it up. It’s not my call.

119

Along those lines, and for the record, I’d like to announce that I have stopped beating my wife.

No, got it all wrong. I’m quite cool with compensating copyright holders for their work. I think there needs to be a better mechanism for it, that’s all.

I totally disagree with the idea that the copyright holder, having created a work of art, then has the right to compel others not to interpret that same work themselves. I do not catfish. I do not think this is fair, logical or reasonable. It’s our common culture, we should all get to play in it.

120

I strongly suspect that this is the natural result of anyone arguing the position I’m arguing. It’s highly controversial and steps on quite a few toes, challenges established thought and generally upsets the old apple cart (another apple metaphor … hmmm). I’m sure they will eventually get around to saying bad things about my mother and so forth as well. Just a matter of time and human ugliness.