Is it kosher for sellers on eBay to charge extra S&H in order to cover eBay fees/PayPal fees? I complained to this seller about his 79 dollar shipping fees, and he very calmly explained that 32 dollars of it was for the eBay listing fee, and that he still had PayPal fees, and such to cover.
No, it is not legit, it’s completely against ebay rules. His fees as a seller are his fees. Likewise any fees from accepting Paypal.
That’s covered here, under the “Circumventing Fees” section.
Specifically:
Thanks for your replies, guys. If you only knew what I was going through trying to get this damn computer. It’s gonna take 5-8 business days, not counting weekends or holidays before it even ships. This is if Hurricane Katrina doesn’t push that back to even more time before they ship it. This place is based in CALIFORNIA!
Here’s my very diplomatic reply to him:
Hopefully this will be my final email.
I suggest that you read this: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-circumventing.html
I then suggest that you read what you wrote before:
“Of the $79 paid for
> >shipping+Handling+processing mostly is handling and processing. eBay
> >listing fees and commission, credit card/Paypal fees, packaging and
> >packaging materials and many more expenses are part of this amount. Do you
> >know that just to list this item on EBAY the way it was listed regardless
> >of
> >whether it sold or not cost $32.”
I then suggest that you refund to me whatever you are not paying for packaging and shipping. Apparently, this will be at least 32 dollars.
Is this one something you have already purchased? The time to complain about shipping costs is before you bid (and the usual method of complaint is not bothering to bid). If the seller didn’t specify shipping costs in the listing, he is bound by ebay rules to charge you for nothing more than the cost of packaging materials and shipping. Postage & handling fees may contain additional elements such as fuel for the trip to the post office, shoe leather, time & trouble etc, if the total cost of shipping is explicitly specified in the listing. Even so, this may not include a surcharge for Paypal fees (but a lot of sellers do it and just call it ‘handling’ instead).
Although I think there might still be one or two places in the world where PayPal fees can be charged on to the customer - this was the case in the UK until comparatively recently.
It’s a constant battle for the seller to sell a product at a competitive price vs the other deals being offered and not get raped by eBay in the process. eBay fees lately have gotten to be (IMO) near gouging and the seller is correct that even if the item does not sell they will still be charged a listing fee. Pay-pal (owned by eBay) fees are also (again IMO) very aggressive for larger ticket items. For an item listed and sold and paid for via Pay-pal the transaction cost to the seller can be a serious chunk of change.
To ship a desktop PC UPS (in my experience) is usually 25 - 50 depending on weight and distance.
I normally almost always do flat rate shipping. Several times I have sold identical PC notebooks on eBay for identical total prices with shipping, but with different (flat rate) shipping and purchase prices. I was very explicit about total shipped prices which were identical. One had a lower price + higher shipping, and the other had higher price and lower shipping. Invariably the lower purchase price and the higher shipping unit gets more attention and more sales.
If I got a snotty note like the one you sent after the sale was over I would conclude the buyer was an oblivious idiot who doesn’t bother reading the listing. If shipping is fixed there’s nothing more aggravating than an idiot buyer who wants to re-negotiate shipping costs after the purchase is made.
If you had no idea what the shipping costs were (and he didn’t list them) you really should have worked that out before bidding.
Well, the “snotty email” was mainly because I was already angry about the “5-8 business days, not including weekends or holidays before your item ships” that wasn’t ANYWHERE in his listing. The 79 dollar shipping, well, when I bought it (it was a buy-it-now,) I didn’t know how much or little it would take to ship. I was like “It’s a big computer, and it’s probably heavy.”
I doubt that anything will happen from this email… the guy will probably ignore it.
I feel about like astro does. When I sell stuff on eBay, I always put a flat shipping fee in the product description, and its always a couple bucks more than it actually will cost me to ship it. It helps take the sting out of the eBay and PayPal fees, and the person bidding can see that flat cost and bid accordingly.
It sucks that it’ll take a while to ship your computer, but was that in the description or not? You already agreed to pay the shipping costs when you used the Buy-it-Now. You may complain a bit about shipping time, but as far as I’m concerned, you don’t have much of a right to complain about shipping costs. You knew those when you bought.
However, the Sellers ToS become invalid if the violate eBays rules or Federal/State law.
Nope, not at all. And it’s not 5-8 business days for shipping… it’s 5-8 days PROCESSING time BEFORE it will ship. That’s what sucks. I’d wait 5-8 days for shipping.
chaotic, it’s not entirely clear from my reading of the thread whether the $79 handling fee or a way to calculate it was spelled out in the item listing, whether you read it or not. If it was, then you have nothing to complain about w/r/t this fee. Go read an Econ 101 textbook before purchasing again on eBay.
The additional processing time is another story.
–Cliffy
79 dollars, yes. What the 79 dollars was for, no.
Here was the response to my email:
"I do not think that at this stage you should be asking for a refund on
an amount paid that you agree to at the time you made the bid on the
item. We are telling you some of the handling expenses that are part of
the system and this is not circumventing anything. If you did not like
the system price and S&H&P amounts then you could have opted no to make
a bid in the first place. I think eBay is happy with the $5000+ a month
they get from us.
Jose
This is the final email, next should be tracking information from UPS
when the system ships."
I suppose my next step (after I get my tracking number), is to report him to eBay.
Cliffy: I was going to tell you off for saying that, but I’ll just keep things neutral by saying that I don’t think that would help. Please don’t come in here and shit all over my thread like that.
I don’t understand. As I read the thread, you decided to purchase something on eBay, knowing the shipping costs, correct? Then, you later thought the shipping costs were too high, you contacted the seller, and he decided to divulge more than he should have about his mechanism for calculating shipping costs.
Frankly, for you to complain seems hard to understand. Even if the seller is not supposed to factor in eBay fees, since he’s allowed to calculate his own “handling” cost, he can set s&h to equal whatever he wishes by deciding his time is worth $x per hour. So even if there’s theoretically a rule against rolling eBay fees into shipping costs, there’s no reason a seller can’t do it. It seems unjustifiable to me to think that the seller isn’t entitled to sell his own time - the “handling” portion of the fee - at whatever amount he likes. The seller’s real mistake was mentioning to you how he calculates the handling fee. He could set it at any random amount he likes, so it’s foolish to expect that any seller wouldn’t roll the eBay fee into it.
Further, it’s immaterial since if everyone really were required to set honest shipping fees, basic supply and demand tells us that base prices on merchandise would go up a corresponding amount. The true price of a product on eBay is the auction price plus the s&h; it makes no difference in the aggregate whether the seller sets a deceptive s&h fee or not, as long as it’s disclosed, since rational bidders will raise or lower the amount they’re willing to bid on an item accordingly.
It’s similar to a basic economic question - does it matter if a sales tax is charged to the customer or to the seller? No, because either way, both end up paying a portion of the cost. The total price will work out to be higher either way, and the seller’s take will work out to be lower. It’s basic economics, pure supply and demand stuff. No matter what the situation is, you would be paying a portion of the eBay fee in the form of the higher price needed to make the sale profitable. The seller would be paying a portion since fewer customers would be willing to bid from a higher minimum, or bid enough to cover the entire fee amount. The nominal payer is irrelevant.
Bottom line, though, is that if you agreed to the transaction knowing the shipping costs, it seems problematic for you to decide they’re too high afterwards and demand a discount from the shipper. I think you agreed to the costs and you should pay them. If you bid without knowing shipping costs and they’re unexpectedly high, you have cause to complain. But if you simply didn’t do the work to figure out what a reasonable price is before you bid, I don’t understand why you feel you deserve a refund.
Well, not to “shit all over the thread” or anything, but you’re totally wrong. You knew about the shipping when you bought the computer. The seller was dumb to let the information about the eBay fee slip, but all sellers add in a little extra to cover the fee(s). For instance, the media mail price to send a mass market paperback over eBay is 1.42. The cost of a mailer (I buy them in bulk) is around .10. Is it unethical to charge more than $1.52 for s/h? Well, considering that I have to take the time and money to put it up on eBay, walk it down to the post office, and maybe incur Paypal fees as a result of the sale, I think those costs (both money and time costs) should not have to come out of my own pocket. Hence, I would charge $2 s/h.
Also, is this a desktop computer? I wouldn’t blink at paying $79 s/h for that; those suckers are heavy and require a lot of padding, and are a pain to lug down to the post office (handling). You’re just trying to weasel out of paying due to a technicality. The seller was dumb for saying he was using the listing fee as a consideration in the s/h price, but you’re being petty by calling him on it. Don’t be surprised if the computer comes to you in a bit less than mint condition.
For what? Being straightforward with you? You keep trying to cast the seller as a cheat in this scenario, and I’m really not seeing it. If you want to be pissed at him for the time lag in shipping that’s one thing, but to go after him * after you have bid on the item* with shipping charges that were known before you bid , because you don’t like the way he’s (honestly) explained his fixed price shipping charges is (IMO) highly unjustified.
In a competitive selling market if he’s tossed 20 or 30 dollars of this transaction fees into fixed price/pre-known shipping fees that means that he reduced the price of this item $ 20-30 to make it more attractive. You are now (retroactively) complaining about he’s structured his transaction when you knew the final cost upfront.
chaotic,
don’t expect ebay to do a thing.
it has been my personal experience that they do not consider unreasonably high shipping & handling to be actual fee avoidance unless it exceeds at least four to five times the actual shipping cost.
if a listing does not specify how quickly a seller ships, you can always e-mail them and ask.
Gotta agree with the majority. The seller was an idiot for showing his hand, but the only time to complain or question or attempt to renegotiate shipping fees is BEFORE you bid. In my experience, many sellers are willing to work with you if you send a polite e-mail request before bidding. I pride myself on my flexible shipping policies when I sell on eBay, and I have 100% positive feedback from lots of happy buyers. But once you bid (or use Buy It Now), you’ve agreed to the seller’s terms, and you can’t back out or be indignant if they don’t offer you a refund.
i forgot to add that i personally do not think $79 is unreasonably high for an item that size and weight.