PayPal fees?

I recently activated a small merchant account on PayPal, and had a customer tell me I wasn’t allowed- apparently by PayPal rules- to add PP fees to my prices.

Now, this isn’t an auction, it’s for small retail sales. $2 in PP fees tends to eat up about a third of my profit margin, so I was asking customers to add $X to the total to cover the fees (much like credit card usage fees are applied.)

As I said, one fellow said I wasn’t allowed to do that. I don’t see any such thing noted on PP’s site (admittedly I gave a cursory skim under 'fees") so I’m wondering if this guy was just trying to save $2.50 or if he’s telling the truth.

I was under the impression that adding the fees was a common occurrence, again, like the ubiquitous credit-card fees. Anyone have the Straight Dope?

Where do you live?

I know it is permissible to charge the fees to the buyer if the seller is in the UK, but I think this is an exception based on some kind of legal asymmetry.

However, AFAIK, there’s nothing to stop you from charging some kind of ‘handling’ fee, but (at least in the case of ebay auctions, which I realise isn’t exactly what you’re about) the buyer has to be made aware of this before the transaction.

That’s right Doc, it is against eBay policy to pass PayPal fees on to the buyer, unless it is a handling fee that all buyers pay, regardless of the method of payment, and it is disclosed in the auction prior to sale. In addition, surcharges for using credit cards may be against the law, depend on where you live.

eBay Policy of Payment Surcharges

But if this isn’t an eBay transaction, then only PayPal rules and policies apply (even though PayPal is part of eBay), plus statutory regulations, of course.

It is also against PayPal policy

Many eBay sellers get around the question of Paypal fees by offering a “discount” on shipping/handling prices for those who pay by other means. :slight_smile:

(Warning: Anti-PayPal bias)

There are also some very affordable thir party credit card processors that will also incorporate storefront stoftware. We use a couple for indie records sales/merchandise/ticket sales.

We switched over because too many of ur customers were complaining about the PayPal process. If you’re running a small business or mail order business it could be worth looking into as an alternative to PayPal.

I’d be most interested to know if this method of circumvention is a legal one.

Wow, fast work.

Okay, as I said, it’s not an auction, so the eBay policy doesn’t apply.

However, that PayPal “surcharge” link does seem to say what the fellow said. Now then, does that mean I can’t charge the customer for actual PP fees (IE, if the shipped price is $10, and PayPal adds on their $0.29 + $0.30, I can’t charge the customer $10.59) or do they mean I can’t tack on an arbitrary surcharge for the “trouble” of accepting PayPal (IE, I can’t charge $12 for that same transaction.)

And Eats-Crayons, most of my customers are teens, and 90% of them already have a PayPal account. As long as the customer pays the PayPal fees (just as they pay the credit card surcharges in normal stores) I don’t care what they charge or how.

Not precisely on-target, but not entirely unrelated:
This circumvention, the “cash discount” has been used widely since the 70s when credit card payment for routine items became widespread. Credit cards had terms prohibiting participating merchants from adding credit card surcharges, and though they challenged the discounts many times, the practice was generally upheld in court, with exceptions.

Many suppliers have long given a cash discount if you paid at delivery rather than “on account” or 30-days terms. IIRC, being too too specific was risky (e.g. a 2% discount for Visa, and a 4% discount for cash, amounts to a surcharge on American Express), but what a seller chooses to consider a ‘cash’ transcaction (e.g. checks, money order, etc) is generally up to them.

An eBay seller could offer a ‘cash/MO’ discount (and many did, the last time I checked), but on further consideration, most find that the convenience and speed of paypal payment [vs. the uncertainty and delay of "payment is in the mail’ or depositing a check) enough of a plus that they want to encourage PayPal payment as much as cash. The choice will vary by vender, of course.

Info for you young folk. In the OLD days when Visa was STILL BANKAMERICARD and MasterCard was MASTERCHARGE and DISCOVER was well it wasn’t…

You used to note places like Sears and Wards and Pennys and Fields did not take BankAmericard and MasterCharge. Why because those companies added FEEs on to the cost. Now here is the interesting part. You USED to be able to go into stores that TOOK MasterCharge and BankAmericard and request a cash discount. Few people knew of this and did it.

Later when BankAmericard and MasterCharge became Visa and Mastercard and Discover stepped in this rule changed. Now stores like Pennys and Fields take those credit cards.

Those credit cards specifically forbid you charging more for using a credit card AND they specifically forbid a minimum charge. So if you go into a store and it says $5.00 minimum for Visa you can go to www.visa.com and report that merchant. And Visa will warn them and can yank their merchant ID and machine.

Paypal uses Credit Cards. Mostly…So they adopted the rules. Of course there are PayPal accounts that only accept PayPal paid thru Checking Accounts. But to simplify it PayPal and eBay also adopted the no extra charges.

If you are charging less even thru shipping and handling for cash and that PayPal was done thru a MC or Visa and that person reports it to Visa or MC, they can yank you off Paypal.

I used to have a lot of trouble as I ran the business center in my last hotel and a lot of guests would check out then come up and make a copy or fax and it would be 75¢ and sinçe they c/o I couldn’t put it on the room. So they would give me their credit card. BUT Visa, MC, Discover and Amex will not pay you on charges 99¢ and less. And you can’t put a minimum so we got screwed out of a lot of little charges.

By the way to those out there if a seller on eBay says it’s less for shipping and handling if you pay cash, report them to eBay and PayPal, get an EMAIL from them stating both costs.

I’ve gotten two seller NARU’d off eBay for trying to pull that stuff.

I am an infrequent seller on eBay. I got around the problem by downgrading my paypal acct to a pesonal acct rather than premium or business. I forget the exact paypal labels but you get the idea. The difference means I can no longer accept credit cards, but I don’t pay anything to receive funds.

Noted. Our buyers are also probably about 95% between the ages of 18-24, we still got a lot of complaints about PayPal, (but then the BBB has had 2787 complaints about PayPal record for the last 36 months or so, so that’s not unexpected for the volume.) If your sales are high volume enough to cover the expense (subscribing to the service), a more direct storefront may still be more profitable for you.

Many of the low price third party processors are seemless, so it isn’t obvious that they’ve left your site. They offer a lot of transaction control (you can easily process full or partial refunds, voids etc.) and many come with databases so that you can track customers and have a gorgeously beautiful record of transactions for tax purposes (our accountant was suitably impressed), sales charts, and other handy tools that help with marketing in general. I know a business that uses it as a terminal for phoned in orders as well.

If gives you a lot of control over your prices, shipping charges, discounts etc., and the fees are in line with the credit card company’s (typically, CC companys charge about 4.5% of the transaction, our CC processor charges 4.5% as well.)

Question: Is there any reason why you can’t adjust your price overall to account for the PayPal fees? ie/ Everyone pays $12 instead of $10 - or is the pricing that significant (as sometimes it really can be).

Part of the reason for eBay’s policy is that eBay bought PayPal this year. They don’t want anything to impede PayPal use.

During the heyday of the 'cash discoun’t (70s/ 80s) you didn’t even have to ask about cash discounts. It was posted on cardboard signs on the register, and some stores had it programmed into their cash registers.

Credit card terms/conditions often include unenforceable terms, which may have been stricken by legal precedent. Sometimes they back off if you point out the law or court ruling (you may have to escalate to a supervisor at the credit card merchant call center). Sometimes they get nasty and threatening. Bottom line: they don’t make any money if they cut you off, so they aren’t quite as eager to do that as one might think. A small internet vendor is in little position to haggle, but companies like Walmart, Safeway, Sears and Circuit City can and have fought Visa and Mastercard over their policies and terms - and won.

I mention those companies because they just won a $2B class action settlement from Visa, and $1B from Mastercard, after a 7 year lawsuit on the the fee structure for debit cards and the “honor all cards” rule - Visa claimed merchants had to accept all Visa cards whether debit, credit or other) Walmart, for one, [url=http://www.forbes.com/2003/12/03/1203automarketscan03.html]will no longer accept Mastercard debit cards after Feb 1, 2004. Similarly, AMEX recently won a reaffirmation of a 2001 anti-trust ruling (Hey, the Big Boys know you don’t actually have to obey a court ruling until you’ve been hit over the heard 2-3 times) which also benefits Discover and other minor cards.

Heck, the Visa and Mastercard even try to use their coercive muscle against each other. Visa announced plane to fine banks who won’t do business with it! This so called “defection fee” against backs that switch to Mastercard (Amex, Discover, etc.) has already been downgraded. They used to “fine” banks for starting to do business with their competitors; now they only “fine” them if they leave Visa.

Admittedly, you won’t get far arguing with eBay (where the buyers and sellers are primarily responsible for each other’s satisfaction [1]) and this attitude will probably reinforce the policies of its subsidiary - though eBay/PayPal are learning that ignoring other big companies like Bank One and AT&T doesn’t work quite so well - they don’t have accounts that can be cancelled to shut them up.

BTW, I’d very much appreciate it if someone could link some recent article on PayPal’s current status as a quasi-bank. I haven’t read anything lately, but I followed the debate over the regulatory status of X.com and PayPal in the years past. Is PayPal a real bank yet?


[1] As I wrote this phrase, I had a chuckle, recalling a recent article on how credit card companies and PayPal turn a blind eye to prostitution rings. Such customers seem to be able to keep their accounts, even after major magazines do investigations and interview company reps about them. They say they’re ‘embarrassed’ by the disclosures, but apparently not embarrassed enough to cancel the merchant accounts of many types of known criminal enterprises.

Oops. Fixed:

“I mention those companies because they just won a $2B class action settlement from Visa, and $1B from Mastercard after a 7 year suit over the the fee structure for debit cards and the “honor all cards” rule: Visa claimed merchants had to accept all Visa cards whether debit, credit or other) Walmart, for one, will no longer accept Mastercard debit cards after Feb 1, 2004. Similarly, AMEX recently won a reaffirmation of a 2001 anti-trust ruling (the Big Boys know you don’t actually have to obey a court ruling until you’ve been hit over the head 2-3 times). This case also benefits Discover and other minor cards.”

You cannot charge extra for PayPal payments, whether it is the exact fee amount or an arbitrary amount. You can charge a flat “handling” fee to all customers, regardless of payment method.

More about surcharges on PayPal payments:

I like this idea!! How did you downgrade your account? I only see how to enhance my account. Does anyone know?

Much thanks!!

Hm. At this point, I’m going to assume that, if I charge the customer only actual transaction fees (2.9% plus thirty cents) without any additional “just because” fee, I’ll be okay.

The only reason I can see for either a card company or PayPal to have such a policy in place is to prevent people from “discouraging” the use of the cards or PP.

Like say I’d prefer to be paid in Money Orders. So I say I’m going to tack on 10% to any credit card order, to “enocurage” users to go with the MO route.

I’m probably wrong in that thinking, but I can’t imagine any other reason that PayPal in particular won’t allow a small business to charge the customer for the fees.

The reason PayPal prohibits surcharges is because the credit card companies (Visa & Mastercard) prohibit them, and any credit card accepting institution (like PayPal) that permits its clients to demand surcharges can lose it’s ability to accept any credit cards. Whether it makes sense or not is really not the issue; your rights to accept credit cards are entirely up to the discretion of Visa & Mastercard (and by extension, PayPal). It sounds like you have made up your mind, but if they find out, they can suspend your account, and that means all funds in it are frozen until it is all sorted out.

And by the way, it is also illegal in ten states.