(posted too soon)
And as for the contracts, if these really are contracts, why is insurance optional for the buyer and why do shipping services say they’re not responsible for incomplete or damaged deliveries? In both cases, it seems to me that the only terms offered are “we’ll try to deliver your stuff, but if anything happens and you didn’t buy insurance… you’re SOL”.
In the UK, these sorts of things are covered by the Sale of Goods Act and the Distance Selling Regulations, which do not appear to draw any distinction between business and private transactions.
These things form part of the contract between the sender and the carrier. Except for apparently being optional, paying extra for shipping valuable items is pretty much the same as paying extra for shipping heavy items; it’s part of the agreement/contract that the sender enters into with the carrier.
I’m not aware of any shipping services that try to say they’re not responsible for loss or damage, but maybe things are different outside the UK; I wouldn’t use a carrier that said things like that.
Hmm, I live in the US, but that raises another point: What are we supposed to do about different state/country laws?
Well, doesn’t the fact that they’re optional indicate that they’re not part of the contracts unless specifically requested and paid for?
Here in America, the United States Postal Service is not responsible for lost or damaged normal mail, only special mail like Registered or COD items and then only if they were insured and paid for. UPS and Fedex guarantee delivery, but liability for loss or damaged items are limited to $100 unless otherwise declared and paid for.
So even these companies don’t guarantee much (or at all, in the case of the USPS) unless you’re willing to pay extra.
I just checked the Royal Mail terms and conditions and without wading through the whole set of documentation, they generally bear the responsibility for delivery; that’s what they service is. Compensation and financial liability when things go wrong are based on the level of service/insurance that has been purchased, but that only amounts to there being different methods of handling different items; your priceless Ming vase is expected to travel by a different method than your birthday card, in much the same way that when you fly by plane, you sit in a seat, while your bags go in the cargo hold.
In the UK, sticking a stamp on a letter and posting it represents buying a service and that service is one where the Royal Mail is considered to have failed if they do not deliver it; they don’t have the option of shrugging and saying that if you really wanted it delivered, you should have bought a different service.
In any case, all of these things are part of contracts between the sender and the carrier. That ebay allows the sender to forward the costs to the buyer, and that ebay is set up in such a way as to make the insurance an option for the buyer, doesn’t make any difference (IMO, and I think in law in this country); the buyer and seller have a contract that echanges money for goods, the seller and carrier have a contract that exchanges money for service; if the item is not delivered, it’s primarily the seller who has been let down; that this has caused him to fail to perform his contract with the buyer is a secondary effect.
To the OP: Was the card in a padded envelope or a standard paper one? If it was paper, then that is definitely inadequate shipping, as the hard case could have easily ripped out of the package. In any case, I don’t think it’s the buyer’s fault for not buying insurance–you didn’t offer it. I say pay him his money and chalk it up as a learning experience.
I don’t share your opinion. I’ve already stated that I don’t think I’m responsible once the package leaves my hands.
I disagree again. The buyer pays the shipping and chooses the method. The ‘contract’ is between the buyer and the shipping company.
The card was wrapped in paper in a standard envelope. The card didn’t rip through the packaging, there was a slit in the envelope. Using a padded envelope wouldn’t have made a difference.
Buyer beware. Nobody forced him to buy from me, and he knew that insurance wasn’t offered before he bid. Had he asked me to insure the package, I certainly would have. And not only that, but he chose First Class Mail…and I have to believe that after 130 eBay transactions he knows that you can’t insure First Class Mail.
He has since filed a dispute with his credit card company, which has escalated the claim with PayPal. I expect a decision will be made soon.
–FCOD
This sounds like an opinion of convenience; How can the buyer have a contract with the carrier when he (typically) has no communication with them at all.
And this is an absurd take on caveat emptor; it would make sense if the buyer could reasonably have aniticipated that buying the item from you might result in the delivery of an empty paper envelope.
There is no contract. That’s your word. The buyer selects and pays for the shipping company. The seller is just dropping the package off.
The buyer takes a risk by not buying insurance. If Joe normally buys insurance, (which he claims he does) then he should think twice before buying from someone who doesn’t offer insurance.
At any rate, I just got off the phone with a PayPal dispute resolution specialist. Due to the fact that he admitted to receiving a damaged, uninsured envelope, she assured me that I would not be responsible for the loss. If he hadn’t been so specific he would have gotten his money back. It would seem that PayPal shares my views of seller responsibility.
–FCOD
No, the buyer reimburses you for the cost of shipping, packaging, etc, which you arrange. In any case, the buyer paid nothing at all to anyone for shipping in this particular case; would it be reasonable just to throw the item in the trash, because he didn’t pay anyone to deliver it?
I think you’re genuinely wrong about this whole assertion that your responsibility ends at the post office counter.
In any case, I think attitudes and stances in the USA might be different to those here; I’m pretty sure that, even if PP/ebay had ended the dispute the same way, the buyer would be able to take you to small claims court and would win, whereupon you would have to try to recoup your losses from the carrier and would be offered standard compensation, as you bought no insurance.
No, because I agreed to mail his item via First Class Mail, which I did.
IANAL, but I don’t think a US small claims court would do anything here. There was no insurance on the package. The buyer is responsible for purchasing insurance or not.
–FCOD
p.s. – FYI: It is pointless to involve the USPS in the matter, as they will not reimburse for any damages on uninsured mail.
Bit of a hijack, but does anyone else think that there’s a certain amount of criminality afoot in the USPS? There have been a number of threads lately dealing with lost goods, and in many of the cases, like FCOD’s, it looks like theft within the postal system. (I’ve had it happen to me to, by the way.) And isn’t stating an insured value just asking for it, in a way?
The apparently innocent term ‘I’ here is the important one, IMO; you agreed to arrange delivery.
I don’t think small claims court would be particularly interested in the insurance or otherwise, or rather, small claims is what people do when there is no insurance.
Here, at least, is a discernible difference between Royal Mail and the USPS; there is no service offered for which RM
will not accept some level of responsibility for safe delivery and compensation. I can’t imagine why anyone would want a service which does not include any accountability at all.
The only claim he could make is that I sent him a ripped, empty envelope, and he’s already admitted on record with PayPal that he doesn’t think that’s what happened. According to PayPal, I am not responsible for USPS damages, and I am not responsible for insuring the package. I think small claims court would agree.
I agree with you here…I always use UPS for my purchases.
–FCOD
Just thought this may be of interest (remembering that this is the ebay user agreement, not statutory consumer law or anything):
The USA ebay site has a similar page and this stipulation is repeated in the User Agreement
My dad once told me that my uncle (his younger brother) worked for the USPS once upon a time, but got fired for stealing magazines. As the story goes, he was caught when too many people complained about their missing subscriptions.
Of course, Dad’s been known to tell stories about his family and then deny the tales later on. This could very well be one of those stories.
Apparently they interpret “deliver” as “ship”, because they’re not making me refund anything.
–FCOD
Hello all…
I’ve been following this for a little while couldn’t resist chiming in. Yes, I am “Joe”. (the buyer in the transaction).
before I reply to anything, let me say this…
I have no issue with Chris (hi Chris) and have actually expressed appreciation to him for how he has handled the issue in a professional and polite manner. I do not disagree with any of the facts, per se, he has laid forth.
OK, with that said…Chris and I just happen to disagree on what should happen when an empty package arrives at the buyer’s door. I had this happen to me where I was the seller and I felt compelled to send a replacement. I don’t say that to say that Chris is doing wrong (I do believe that he made an honest attempt to get the item to me, I have no reason to believe otherwise), just to point out that I have been in his shoes and that is how I chose to deal with it.
I’m not here to disagree with any of the facts. I’m just here in the spirit of fair representation and to answer any questions anyone may have of me while we all await for PayPal/eBay to weigh in on the issue.
Jed (a.k.a. “Joe”)
JoeTheBuyer, welcome. I’ve worked for an eBay powerseller and it was generally acknowledged in the Powerseller community that we’re responsible for getting the item to the buyer, period. PayPal will most likely rule in your favor, simply because you have the power to do a chargeback on your credit card (which you should do).
As a rule of thumb, eBay rules in the seller’s favor and PayPal rules in the buyer’s favor. But since it’s PayPal that actually controls the funds…
I’d just accept it as an expensive lesson for the seller, always require insurance, and move on.